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 Wavy tenons
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2010-01-29 05:51

Hi

Does anyone know WHY some companies make a wavy tenon? This is the tenon that is not just grooved but instead two big waves with gaps in the middle and ends. I posted about it before and it is pretty obvious this is a terrible idea with nothing but disadvantages. I just can't think why they do this. My best/only guess is they used shellac to glue them. I've never seen one actually glued with shellac or any type of filler glue but I don't know if ever saw any originals. But I can't see an advantage over the regular grooved tenon even if they did use shellac. It is probably slower and/or more expensive to make too, especially than the non-grooved tenon that would best anyway with the best glue. So does anyone know WHY?

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2010-01-29 08:01

And they incorporate a very deep, sharp groove right at each end of the groove, establishing a significant weak "stress raiser".

An absolutely nutty idea,. Both Selmer and Buffet did (/do?) it.
Was it some stupid advertising gimmick?

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: skygardener 
Date:   2010-01-29 09:03

I have a pre-1900 and a 1920s buffet and it are only grooved. It seems that the waves came around with the R13. I don't know why, either. It makes everything a hassle, and the cork is never really firm because you have o use really thick cork.

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2010-01-29 10:32

>> Was it some stupid advertising gimmick? <<

I've never heard about it before I saw it so I doubt that. I can't think of any advantage they can claim in advertisement. I would ask Buffet but...

>> It makes everything a hassle, and the cork is never
>> really firm because you have o use really thick cork.

I now fill the gaps first. Then, if I still need very thick cork, I first glue a layer of rubber-cork and the natural cork over that. The result is as good as any tenon cork but just a lot more work. This probably makes the tenon a little stronger too, one of the problems of this wavy design, but maybe not by much.

Honestly maybe the only reason I can think of is that a person who had no idea somehow got to the position of deciding this. Very strange.



Post Edited (2010-01-29 10:33)

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2010-01-29 12:01

It takes the same amount of time to cut a grooved or wavy tenon slot as it does to cut a smooth one as the cutter is either specially shaped or programmed to cut the slot accordingly. The tenon slots are usually cut automatically by machine (along with other shaping).

But with impact adhesives there's no need for a tenon to have grooves or waves as that decreases the contact area on the back of the tenon cork - it's only the peaks of the grooves or waves that are in contact with the underside of the cork. Much better to have a completely smooth slot or one that's slightly domed but still with a smooth surface.

In the days when they used to use shellac to glue tenon corks on with, they may have needed more surface area for the shellac to adhere to by having deep grooves in the tenon slots, but with modern impact adhesives it's best to have a smooth surface so maximum bond can be achieved.

If you remove a tenon cork from an R13 you'll find it as only stuck to the peaks of the waves and the troughs are untouched - only having dried glue in them. Likewise with grooved slots - the tenon cork has only stuck to the peaks which is the minimum surface area of the slot.

On instruments with deep grooves I remove them (by turning them down) so I can have a smooth surface to glue a tenon cork onto.

Chris.

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: Lelia Loban 2017
Date:   2010-01-29 14:04

I think that wavy groove must be fairly recent on the Buffet. I have an Eb from1898, a pair of Bb and A from late 1920 or early 1921, a clarinet in A from 1931, a Bb from 1937, a Bb from probably about 1949 (during a period when serial numbers can't be matched with exact dates), and a clarinet in A from 1977. All of them have normally-grooved tenons.

Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2010-01-29 23:46

"...I can't think of any advantage they can claim in advertisement...."

The waves assist the upper partials to travel the length of the instrument, by reinforcing their amplitude, hence enhancing the tone.

LOL! That is the sort of thing I read in woodwind voodoo advertising. And guys believe it!

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: skygardener 
Date:   2010-01-30 02:50

"The waves assist the upper partials to travel the length of the instrument, by reinforcing their amplitude, hence enhancing the tone."
Gordon,
You don't need to be sarcastic about the fact that anything and everything that Buffet does to its instruments improves the tone. ;)

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2010-07-17 08:12
Attachment:  IMG_1688.JPG (19k)

Just saw another one so decided to take a photo. I now never glue tenon corks on these without first filling the gaps.

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: Tony F 
Date:   2010-07-17 08:37

Has anybody considered fillng the deep grooves with Kevlar thread and epoxy and levelling to the depth of a normal tenon? It would add considerable strength to the tenons.

Tony F.

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: BobD 
Date:   2010-07-17 12:34

"In the beginning" the fine grooves were there for thread. When most people quit using thread they were no longer needed and "someone" decided to make the change. The "wave grooves" allow for cork compression??

Bob Draznik

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: skygardener 
Date:   2010-07-17 12:55

I think when one is using shellac for cork glue it might be beneficial to have deeper groves..

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 Re: Wavy tenons
Author: Chris P 
Date:   2010-07-17 12:59

Tenon corks glued on with shellac are a pain in the proverbial - it's the cleaning up of the shellac from the tenon slot that's the worst part as you do need eye protection when chipping off the shellac.

Impact adhesive is the best for glueing on tenon corks, but do prep the tenon slot well beforehand.

http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html?1,2250/IMG_1688.JPG Not too impressed with the width of the upper tenon ring (at the shoulder) on this tenon - hardly any wood there!

Chris.

Post Edited (2010-07-17 13:02)

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