 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ted
Date: 1999-03-23 01:29
At what speed should one be able to cleanly tongue ... for example 16th notes at 120 beats per minute, to play most clssical music?
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-03-23 04:07
I don't know what the answer to your question is, but I know that I can tongue clean 16th notes at quarter = 120, the rate you mention, if my fingers know the music well enough. I can do 16ths at about quarter=140 if I don't have to move my fingers much. Without double-tonguing, of course. However, my instructor tells me I have a fast tongue. I'm sort of curious whether that is above average.
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Author: ted
Date: 1999-03-23 13:14
A comfortable speed for me is about 110 bpm when tonguing all four notes. However I can play about 140 bpm, for sequences with two notes slurred and two tongued repeatedly. I've wondered if the 110 was slow, because my private instructers both had much faster tonguing.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-03-23 19:00
If you include slurring, I can move my fingers far faster than my tongue and you get to the point where I push the edge of my technique. Ask me again in 10 years.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-03-23 19:01
ted wrote:
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A comfortable speed for me is about 110 bpm when tonguing all four notes. However I can play about 140 bpm, for sequences with two notes slurred and two tongued repeatedly. I've wondered if the 110 was slow, because my private instructers both had much faster tonguing.
Ted -
Sixteenths at 110 is pretty slow. If you're a good high school player, you should be able to maintain 120 (sixteenths at march tempo) pretty much indefinitely. If you can't, you're probably doing something wrong -- maybe moving your throat or jaw. You really need to get with your teacher and work on this particular area.
Most college clarinet majors can get up to 144, and some professionals (e.g., Robert Spring) can go right off the end of the metronome.
There are a number of ways to double tongue. The most common is the ta-ka method used by brass players and flutists. There is a good article on Sneezy by Robert Spring about that way. Another way is the "rebound" method developed by James Collis, in which, on a single motion, the tongue bounces off the reed just back of the tip and strikes the reed again at the tip.
Double tonguing is difficult to perfect, and even more difficult to do with complete evenness and control. It's possible to work up most of the really fast passages single tongued. You can't really afford even the slightest unevenness at an audition when they call for the Midsummer Night's Dream Scherzo or the finale of the Beethoven Fourth.
Good luck. Speed will come, with hard work and learning to avoid wasted motion.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Joris van den Berg
Date: 1999-03-23 23:08
What is slow or fast completely depends on what the notes are you are playing. eg. the third part of the Mozart clarinet concerto: there are staccato thingies in there that really require a lot of my tonguing, but if i'd play the same rate at a single note it wouldn't be a problem at all. The timing between fingering and tonguing is the biggest problem.
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Author: ted
Date: 1999-03-24 00:07
...interesting point Joris. My problem is finger-tongue coordination. 110 is the speed at which I can play the major scales without sloppiness. I can obviously tongue faster repetitively playing the same note. However I end up playing parts of many pieces at slower tempos than I'd like because of this lack of coordination. I will certainly make it a point to improve the speed.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-03-24 00:49
Amateurs are misunderstanding how the tonguing should be.A tone emits when the tongue is reliesed from the reed. Not when we toutch the reed.This is absolute fact of 'all' woodwind playing.
If we recognize this fact,tonguing becomes very easy.No need of carirng the speed of the phrase.
One fact:practice after many hours of ordinary practice.We are fatiguee but our tongue becomes very relaxed.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-03-24 01:05
ted wrote:
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...interesting point Joris. My problem is finger-tongue coordination. 110 is the speed at which I can play the major scales without sloppiness. I can obviously tongue faster repetitively playing the same note. However I end up playing parts of many pieces at slower tempos than I'd like because of this lack of coordination. I will certainly make it a point to improve the speed.
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If you read Daniel Bonade's clarinet compendium, he indicates that it is the finger coordination issue that is often the real culprit in tonguing. I had a teacher who also believed this and she expanded on it a little bit. Your subconscious "thinks" that the tongue is slow and HOLDS THE FINGERS BACK. Then you get this muddy sounding effect and the student things it is his tongue falling behind when it is really his fingers. This reinforces the subconscious mind (which is not too bright anyway) and starts convincing the conscious mind in the idea that the tongue is slow. Then as the student tries focusing on the tongue, the situation can even get worse.
Two things help.
1. Try to get Bonade's "Clarinet Compendium" and work on his drill for synchronizing the tongue and fingers.
2. In fast tongued passages, focus on FINGER SPEED. Don't let your subconscious mind drag down your fingers.
3. Really listen to yourself and pay attention to the fingers. Once you are aware that it may be the mind dragging the finger speed down, you can actually hear that you tongued and then moved the finger.
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-03-24 01:10
Hiroshi wrote:
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Amateurs are misunderstanding how the tonguing should be.A tone emits when the tongue is reliesed from the reed. Not when we toutch the reed.This is absolute fact of 'all' woodwind playing.
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This is 100% correct. The word "tonguing" often leads to think that the sound is achieved when the tongue hits the reeds. Many beginners hit the reed due to this misunderstanding and end up with very poor sound at the start of the note. Daniel Bonade's "Clarinet Compendium" has an excellent drill to teach the student to how to tongue properly by releasing the tongue from the reed.
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Author: Rick2
Date: 1999-03-24 04:29
I understand the definition of tonguing. I interpereted his question as meaning tongued notes as opposed to legato or slurred notes.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-03-24 05:36
Any one can understand that a player who can play Rabaud Solo de Concour 1st movement very smoothly does know the definition of tounguing.
p.s.Sorry my expression "all amateurs" are definitely wrong(semantically,or any otherly).Personally,when I started flute in my boyhood,I misunderstood the meaning of 'attack'.
After 10 years I knew the real meaning.He-He.
(But still I think many people 'may' not know the meaning of 'tounguing' as elaborated by Dee.)
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Author: Merry
Date: 1999-03-25 00:13
My tonguing stinks. After years of anchor tonguing I have been trying to cure myself of this habit for months now. I do not let myself anchor tongue but I am still having problems with my tonguing speed. I don't have problems on my flute and can happily double and triple tone on brass but having the mouthpiece invasively in my mouth with the clarinet is causing me no end of problems. My jaw doesn't move but my tongue is moving way too much and my staccato is dreadful especially in the upper clarion and the entire altissimo register. Help!! Any further advice would be appreciated
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-03-25 01:45
Try working just a single open note (such as open G). Tongue it slowly until it is clean and correct. GRADUALLY work up in tempo. Once you can do the single note well, add one note and alternate between notes. Start slow and make sure it is clean and correct. Then gradually increase speed. Then as things improve, just keep adding notes. Don't try tongued runs until you can do these things well as there is too much (mentally) going on in a run.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-03-25 14:00
ted wrote:
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...interesting point Joris. My problem is finger-tongue coordination. 110 is the speed at which I can play the major scales without sloppiness. I can obviously tongue faster repetitively playing the same note. However I end up playing parts of many pieces at slower tempos than I'd like because of this lack of coordination. I will certainly make it a point to improve the speed.
Ted -
Strangely enough, the way to improve speed is by slowing down. There is a speed at which you are completely comfortable. Then there's one where you have trouble. Finally, there's one where you can "fake" your way through it.
The important exercise is to work through the intermediate obstacle. If it's at 110 for you now, drop back to 96. If you find you're not 100% confident at 96, go even slower. The first time I worked on the Baermann III exercises in F#, my teacher had me start with quarter notes at 60 and work up from there.
It's incredibly important that during practice sessions, you always begin at a tempo a little slower than what you can maintain comfortably, and then gradually increase the speed to push against that difficult resistance point while keeping the relaxation and precision you have at the slower speed.
In a practice session, you should never jump up to the quicker "faking" speed. You have to build a solid technical foundation across the gap, or it will collapse under the pressure of public performance.
It's not fun. It's hard work. You find the most difficult possible intermediate speed and stay there until you have it licked. And it feels so good when you stop. :-)
Ken Shaw
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-03-25 23:31
Ken Shaw wrote:
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It's not fun. It's hard work. You find the most difficult possible intermediate speed and stay there until you have it licked. And it feels so good when you stop. :-)
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On top of all that, it's boring. But it is absolutely essential work.
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Author: ted
Date: 1999-03-26 03:30
Thanks Ken, Dee and the rest.
I have a copy of the "Clarinetist's Compendium .." by Bonade. I actually read it for the first time after looking at your responses. Although it's killing me, I'm devoting part of my daily practice to tonguing exercises. i'll let you know my progress in a few weeks.
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