 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2000-12-20 20:32
OK gang, I have a student who is a very accomplished high school player. She told me last week that she wanted to play the trombone - in brass ensemble, jazz band, and MARCHING BAND. (OK you can imagine what my brain is doing while I'm hearing this...) Evidently their band suffers in the brass department due to a lack of players.
Her band director, a brass player says that I am wrong when I say it's not good for her embouchure - which we are working on, BTW. I don't see how he doesn't get that you don't have a student who is **developing** her embouchure playing an instrument which uses muscles in a totally different way than her major instrument!!!!
Gang, I need you to let my student know exactly why she should not be playing the trombone. I am going to have her read this link, so don't hold back!!!!
You know, I could say I wonder why a brass player's band suffers in the brass department...........yet has a pretty decent clarinet section..... or maybe I don't wonder!!!  Thanks!!!
Lynn
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Author: Gene Wie
Date: 2000-12-21 00:39
First off, my apologies, I don't think my perspective on this is going to aid in persuading your student to stay away from the brass...=)
I really don't think that playing another instrument is going to significantly hurt a student's ability to maintain and develop a proper embochure. After all, it really *is* using the muscles in a completely different way. I agree that immediately switching between instruments after playing one will bring up some strange feeling results, but after a short period of time (which decreases as one's muscles become more used to playing in that state) the player will acclimate to the embochure for that particular instrument again.
I play a range of string and wind instruments myself, and I feel that having the experience of playing in other sections of orchestra/band has been a valuable addition to my musical education. I recall countless directors who have launched the often-heard tirade about "listening to the other parts" in regard to ensemble balance and synchronization, and being a violinist initially, I don't think I really understood the concept until I sat at the back of an orchestra with my hand in the rear-facing bell of my horn and realized I had to play a bit ahead of the ensemble in order to keep up with the string players (who always seem to push things; and now I know =). And having done that, I now have a lot more tolerance for horn players (wait a sec, what was that pitch again?), since clarinet brings with it very little of the frustration that horn does. =)
How about an experiment? If playing trombone negatively affects your student's clarinet playing, she can always drop it and go back. I don't think there's any rule on the books that says a person has to play marching season on a single instrument. =)
Gene
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-21 00:42
Why should it hurt her embouchure? When we train the other muscles in our bodies, we use on a variety of exercises to develop the muscles in all possible ways. It might slow down her development on the clarinet a bit as she will have more to work on, but in the long run should not hurt her. This assumes that she has the self-discipline to work on both instruments.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-12-21 01:54
I started playing trumpet one year ago besides flute,clarinet,sop-sax.
I remember Lelia also plays trumpet. My thoughts:
1.Where of the lips used?:
Clarinet: Inside of the lips(soft part) is actively used.
Brass: the hard part of outer lips. If played with inside of lips, very bad tones.
Therefore, brass players try to tackle in their lips.
2.How much time is necessary for brass exercise to reach a beginner's level?:
At least 6 month to one year(one hour per day) will be necessary to play tunes.
Concentration is necessary. Exercise time is split.
3.What part of embuchure is mainly trained by long tone of brass?:
Lips. You feel it.
4.Brass players need warm down when they finish to let blood flow.
It is quite difficult to play clarinet after playing trumpet.
5.Ordinarily doublers choose same kind of instruments. Reed instruments or
brasses.
The big difficulty is shortening parctice time. Confucius said 'He who seeks two rabits will lose both. Especially time is precious when young. That is not the case
with me.
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Author: William
Date: 2000-12-21 01:56
Not much help here, either, since I played 1st sop bugle in a mid-west championship drum and bugle corps while I was in high school band taking private lessons on the clarinet. In college, I majored in clarinet with french horn as my minor. I still play the trumpet for fun and boast a consistant playing range from low F# to high C--I once played the third trumpet book in a local professional theater production because there were no woodwind books available and I needed the work. But my main interest has always been the clarinet and, as doubles, the saxes and flutes. And I have been playing in concert bands, orchestras and a variety of jazz ensembles all my life with fairly good results--at least, conducors and musicians always invite me to come back or stay (not to boast, merely an attempt at credability). I find no more difficulty in switching from clarinet to trumpet (or horn) than from switching from Bb, A, Eb or Bass clarinet to bari sax or flute. Like Dee says, you are just using different muscles in different way like athletes do all the time. The great jazz alto sax player Benny Carter playes equally effective jazz trumpet for jam sessions As long as your student keeps practicing the clarinet as regularily, experimenting with the trombone can only strengthen more muscles in the embouchure (watch out for cold sores by playing too much too soon) and train the ear to listen more carefully as correct pitch depends on the precise slide position and not a "sure-fire" woodwind fingering. Good luck, and good teaching.
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2000-12-21 03:59
I'm not going to be of much help either. I'm a sophomore in college, and as a music ed major, I'm tasting all different instruments, and on the ones I like, I take lessons privately. My primary instrument is clarinet, but I also dabble in bassoon, horn, and euphonium. This doesn't really bother my clarinet teacher (except when I randomly started playing with diaphragm vibrato in my clarinet lesson!), but rather I have found a new appreciation for various instruments. As I improve on clarinet, I yearn for that challenge that a new instrument brings, and my clarinet playing hasn't gone down at all because of it. On the contrary, I find that playing a brass instrument has improved my breath support!
Go ahead! Let your student experiment on trombone...just make sure she has enough time to practice her main instrument!
Don't fret too much!
Melanie
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-12-21 07:23
You can read what a Canadian flute pro-instructor says about doubling here:
http://users.uniserve.com/~lwk/doubling.htm
He himself had been a doubler(tripler?). Quite different experience, almost lament, is told.
Would James Galway(flute), Marcel Moyse(flute), J.P.Rampal(flute), De Payer(cl),Karl Leister(cl), or H.L.Clark(trumpet) say 'doubling is OK' to his students?
This would be a joke. It depends on each individual's commitment on instrument(s).If she wants to play only for fun, she can do anything. However, if she tries to be a professional player, the matter is quite different. The most foolish thing is the reason she starts to play trombone: no players. It seems not because she really loves it.
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Author: Pam
Date: 2000-12-21 12:26
I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help either. I played the trombone while in high school for marching and jazz band and clarinet or bass clarinet in the concert band. While it has been 20 years ago, I don't remember struggling to keep my clarinet embouchure in shape. I enjoyed practicing on all the instruments.
I think a little diversity in her studies may be a helpful thing if she wants to plan to teach music someday.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-21 14:11
Does anybody learn as fast as an infant? Does an infant wait before he starts learning to talk in case it interferes with his use lips and tongue for eating?
Do you avoid junping in case it messes up your walking? Does your clarinet tongueing mess up your tongue for talking? Does clarinet fingering interfere with your ability to write?
So why should trombone mess up your clarinet playing. Practice both. Practice quick changes.
In shows I often play 5 instruments - well.... and change, often abruptly 50 or 60 times in a performance. I can do it easily because I have practiced it.
Go for it, and try the flute as well, which is far more affected by other instruments.
The ONLY qualities you need are perseverence, ignoring the negative prognoses of others, a model of good tone in your head, and careful, aware listening.
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2000-12-21 21:52
This is very interesting, that a lot of you don't think that a developing embouchure can be affected by using the muscles differently. (LOL I'd like to hear how well you play the clarinet, or any other instrument, for that matter!!!) I can tell you personally that going from clarinet to flute - for me - well, my flute playing really stinks for the first hour or so. It takes a while for the switch to take hold. I play double lip on clarinet and the switch from flute to clarinet is no big deal. The other way, however....
My guess is that she will go from one to the other, from rehearsal to rehearsal, and not get a chance for her muscles to relax. Also, knowing her, she will practice a lot because she wants to be good. Which, while not necessarily being a bad thing, I believe would conflict with the development of her clarinet embouchure. It's hard enough to get some students to concentrate on the small stuff (like just keeping your chin down). Outside of being a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None..."
Which of course adds this question - Do we need to "settle" for students who are less than their potential on their major instrument because they have to be good at everything? Or do we want students who end up being accomplished musically?
I also went through all those teacher classes for the different instruments, I was pretty good on French Horn, and can play pretty much any wind instrument I pick up. But I would NEVER play one in a marching band. I played sax. Not much of a difference - but a little variation for her - and I did give her a soprano I had on hand so she could play around with it.
Think of a swimmer and a weight lifter, or any other athlete for that matter. How different their shoulders look. The swimmer, however, is not going to be able to do things with their upper body that a weightlifter could. Why should it be different for your embouchure?
Lynn
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2000-12-22 02:31
Lynn,
When the principal decided (this was several years ago) to do away the the assistant band director's job I suddenly had to teach brass classes as well. Even with the knoweldge of fingerings/slide positions it was still hard for me to relate to the brass students' problems. So, I took up playing the trumpet and trombone (enough) to experience some of the problems they were having and be able to tell them how I fixed them so they could do the same. I am still playing the trumpet and trombone at school. I have gotten good enough on them over the years that I can play better than my advanced band students at the middle school where I teach. It hasn't hurt my playing clarinet one bit and in fact I think in some ways it has helped me with breath control. I too feel like a young student needs to devote theirself to one instrument before branching out, but as embouchre goes I think you'll lose the argument here. I would approach it on a "get good at one instrument and then think about another" argument. Have the student make a list of pro's and con's and then defend them. In my opinion this will surely have more impact than the embouchre issue.
John
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-22 17:24
"I have a student who is a very accomplished high school player"
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This, IMO, is **THE** issue of real importance.
If this student **INTENDS** to really do something with Clarinet, then her entire focus and time should be concentrated on playing Clarinet --- to the exclusion of the brass musical experiences.
If this student does **NOT INTEND** to really do something with Clarinet, then the (additionall) brass musical experience is probably a great idea.
Is it better to be a big fish in a little pond, or a little fish in a big pond? Is multi-instrument musical experience better than a narrow, focused single-instrument musical experience? The answer probably depends on where the student is going.
Best of luck & Happy Holidays to all !
me
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-23 09:03
The last thread reminded me of a saying:
The general practitioner learns less and less about more and more until he knows everything about nothing;
The specialist learns more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing.
I am somewhere in between. Lynn if you PRACTICE changing a lot between flute and clarinet, especially if you have a FOUNDATION of good tone and control on the flute, you will speed up the change with minimal effect. I did this.
Anybody playing in the 'show' arrangements - which require dozens of such changes, often with only a couple of seconds between instruments - has to.
I have mentioned in other threads the changes I developed to achieve this. And my flute tone is regarded as pretty good.
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Author: Pam
Date: 2000-12-23 14:18
I think Mark W. hit it on the head. What does she want to do beyond high school? Will her focus be clarinet performance or maybe a teaching career? That decision should be faced first and then the decision of whether to branch out to other instruments (or not) be made.
Have a blessed Christmas to all!
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Author: bob gardner
Date: 2000-12-23 15:38
Remember the words of Pete Fountain when asked his advise for a young clarinet player.
Pete said "learn to play the trombone"
Merry Christmas
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-23 16:11
Gordon said:
"The general practitioner learns less and less about more and more until he knows everything about nothing; The specialist learns more and more about less and less until he knows everything about nothing."
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I guess this could be true in some professions, if it is true in music than I guess i am just missing the boat or ignorant. ***I think the specialist gets better and better.***
I am an accountant/cpa & former university professor (8 years). I *know* that the statement above is *not true* in my profession or other financial disciplines. It is also *not* true in the fields of law, teaching, mediciine, dentistry, veterinary medicine, computer science & many other fields.
My father was a "jack of all trades" and a darned good one. He warned me early in life to speciailize if I could so that I wouldn't end up like him (my family struggled financially; my dad was good at anything he touched, as he cared about his work).
I have no problem with generalists, without them we could *NEVER* succeed (eg. the generalist leads us to our initial success in many things upon which the specialist is then engaged).
When I became an accountant I found that reaching to certification was an answer. So, I became a CPA. I immediately found that taxation paid more that financial accounting, and that I enjoyed tax work much more.Then I found that those individuals who were looked upon as experts in taxation had near limitless earnings capacity & attracted business better because the work they did attracted those who wanted to save money with an expert.
I believe that these same ideas/principles are applicable to most lines of study & work. Drucker, Marcellus, Brymer, Bonade, Combs, Yeh, and all the other greats really put their time in on clarinet. Yes we have an occasional prodigy who can do it a couple of years, etc.
My private teacher is an example of a highly-trained specialist on clarinet. While I value her teaching & professional play dearly, I am not worried about her future. It will only get better and better. She went to the best schools NTSU & Michigan & back to NTSU for her DMA. Is she best suited to teaching clarinet or to playing clarinet? Beats me, her specialist training in high school & first years of college solved all that for us! There are many people like her, too. She is not an anomaly.
Save the geniuses for others. Give me the talented-hard worker willing to speciailize ... they'll be successful every time, in some way.
Happy Holidays to all.
mw
PS --- Lynn, have your student read this & ask them where they want to be in 8-20 years. Do they want to have an impact on what they do? Do they see themselves following the leader? Do they see themselves teaching the masses? Do they see themselves debuting on Clarinet somewhere? There is a place for generalists and there is a place for specialists. There are arguments for both. We need them both.
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Author: HTW
Date: 2000-12-23 23:25
In all my education, I've learned that playing a brass instrument and wind instrument are not compatible. The bones of the face will shift ever so slightly (especially if the player is still young) if the same sort of pressure is put on them consistantly, like playing an instrument. This is important to forming a good embouchure. The basic embouchure of a brass instrument pushes the bones and muscles of the face back and flat. Clarinet or oboe pulls them foreward more to a point. Flute doesn't put any direct pressure on the face, so that's why both brass and woodwind players can double on it so comfortably. I've never seen anyone who was good at brass and reed at the same time...once they take up the second instrument the first one suffers quite a bit. Bones, muscles, lips...all affected.
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Author: HTW
Date: 2000-12-23 23:39
Also, on the topic of show music, notice how show music parts never mix brass with reed?
P.S. Sorry, I realize that flute statement in the last posting was a bit generalized, but you get the idea.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-12-24 00:16
Hi.
I'd be interested in a medical reference as to bone displacement in brass and clarinet musicians.
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Author: jbutler
Date: 2000-12-24 01:12
I know a very fine jazz musician that plays saxophone and trumpet and is equally adept on both. He plays alto, tenor, baritone sax and trumpet. He "gigs" in a couple of local bands and fills in where needed in others......maybe he's an exception, but has managed to do both trumpet and sax well. I know, now I'm waiting for the sax jokes right..............
John
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Author: Melanie
Date: 2000-12-24 05:17
The horn players in the band Gran Turino also all switch around on sax (all flavors), trumpet, trombone, and even flute. Doesn't seem to affect them too much, but of course they aren't classical musicians by any means, but they are great performers, and I really like their music. (but they smoked in between playing --- horror of horrors!) Maybe they aren't such a good choice of doubling role models....
Melanie
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-12-24 12:39
I and my oldest daughter studied for a while with a woman who was a superb clarinet player and a very fine French horn player.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-24 13:33
htw, I too would like a medical reference. Your statements astonish me. One certainly does not play a clarinet by pushing forward. Which bones and muscles are you writing about? Muscles cannot push; they only contract and therefore pull. None of these instruments uses a pout, which looks like a push but is achieved by pulling muscles sphincter-like further back around the mouth. Flute, oboe and clarinet have the jaw in a very natural position. The pressure on bones is minute compared with that of chewing. The jaw is the only bone part of the face that moves and its joint is such that it can easily 'float' to any position supported by muscles which are extremely versatile. The forces when playing reeds is almost all vertical, so are you saying that the centre of the upper and lower jaw dent (with the teeth) up and down respectively. None of this makes any sense at all to me.
Also, the probable reason that brass & woodwind parts are not mixed is because the fingerings of all the woodwind is similar, and very different from that of brass. Brass trains basically only 3 fingers so the player would have a long learning curve to double on woodwind.
And in my experience players who are PRIMARILY brass or reed players have quite a challenge getting a decent sound and 3rd octave control from the flute. Easier the other way around.
I had a young pupil who played flute and trumpet. He reckoned that the relaxation required in the embouchure was very similar and that the trumpet practice helped his flute playing. Both require excellent control of the pressures at the centre of the lip.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-12-24 14:40
I did as much research as I could on the 'net, contacted our family orthodontist, and contacted a friend of mine who is a physiologist. None could come up with any studies on problems on facial bone disorders related to musicians (which actually surprised me - I thought there'd be something from the orthodontist. The studies he checked - there have been a number - showed no conclusive correlations between brass playing or reed playing and the need for orthodontial work. However, he did say that there may have been more in-depth studies that showed some causal relationships.)
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-24 17:50
((Moving slightly forward with this subject & not posturing to anybody's position, etc))
I wonder what some of the very best Clarinet Teachers in the World would have to say about this subject? Here I am not talking about a Teacher I/you/anybody would encounter through curriculum (eg. a required class at college), rather somebody we wanted to "STUDY WITH".
ex: What would a Jon Manasse, Howard Klug, Bruce Yeh, Mitchell Lurie, or Larry Combs say about this if they had a student who wanted to do this? (Is Lurie actively taking students?; I met one recently who just started studying with him)
This topic would make an excellent dissertation for some DMA in Music.
mw
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Author: HTW
Date: 2000-12-25 02:17
Mark, I'm also surprised that the orthodontist you checked with had nothing to say about it. My dentist is constantly having to check my teeth for displacement and we eventually had to have a wire put in five years after my braces were taken out. Maybe some people have less rigid bones than others, maybe it's an age thing (kids bones are softer because they're still forming). Could it be that the people that can switch so comfortably between brass and reed have more rigid bones than others? Just a guess.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-12-25 18:01
HTW - the orthodontist checked for studies, not anecdotes. One person does not a study make. teeth can be pushed out of alignment by many things, but my orthodontist, doing a survey of the literature, could find nothing that related wind (brass and reed) to orthodontic troubles, even though it would be easy to assume there'd be a correlation.
I assumed since you had made your statement above that you had done some research into the matter and had something concrete for us to read up on.
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Author: Lynn
Date: 2001-01-03 19:12
Thanks for all your responses. Been away, vacation is a wonderful thing...
I tend to agree with Mark, I think. She needs to find her focus. She still is not sure whether she wants to be a clarinet major, an art major, or both. (I told her both, LOL - sort of in the vein of the Pete Fountain quote!) In any event, painting or sculpting aren't going to hurt her embouchure!
It would be interesting to know whether or not there really is a physical correlation.
And as for doubling (which really wasn't the subject), I do have a good flute tone. It's just that if I want to play the flute *as well* as I play the clarinet, I need a LONG warmup before the muscles I use to play the flute give me the tone I want. I can't just hop back and forth.
And while I had all those brass classes (and wasn't a bad horn player myself) I would not say that I don't *feel* different after playing those instruments, because I do. I feel like I've had a workout in a different way. And then it takes twice as long to get back into shape.
Fortunately or unfortunately, I don't believe in settling for anything less than my best, whatever I am playing. Saxophone does NOT count, LOL. My cat can sound good on a sax.
BTW My husband says Harold Wright would have disowned him if he'd wanted to play the trombone....anyone who studies with some of the others mentioned care (or dare) to ask your teachers????
Lynn
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