 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-06-23 23:22
I learned yesterday that Selmer and yamaha starter level Saxes are being manufactured in CHINA......
That to me is a really scary thought.
Typically
Japan = quality
Germany = quality
France = quality
I associate China with cost cutting and short cutting a product.
I've got to assume that the same relocation of manufacturing is happening for the low level lines of clarinets also.
Has anybody tried these Chinese made major brand model instruments?
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-06-23 23:36
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Japan = quality
> Germany = quality
> France = quality
When I was a kid:
Japan = junk
(tin toys that cut you, plastic toys that broken if you looked at them crosseyed).
Things change.
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-06-23 23:41
David:
I now have to agree with Claribass on that China PR is capable technically in producing a decent quality instrument, but their indigenous market environment does not foster for craftsmen to hone their art in fine instrument production.
I was curious after reading Claribass's accounts on his run-ins with the Chinese made instruments, and went to the Chinese Clarinetist forum ( http://www.clarinet.cn/) to measure what the local players have observed.
At this moment, it would seem that Buffet is king, with R-13 as the card that all aspiring mafioso desires. The only brand that the Chinese PR find to have recognition and of some promise would be Jupiter, but that's really a Taiwanese corporation who manufactures their low-end offerings in mainland.
Even the best of Jupiter however, being that of JP-931S, is no better than a really good student instrument, edging out E13 perhaps. Whatever it is, China PR and their mass production, fierce competition through aggressive undercutting of prices all conspire and a lack of will to invest in quality made 'indigenous instrument' by the Chinese professionals all conspire against the Chinese Clarinet market.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-06-23 23:42
I recently brought a new Jupiter 631 plastic Bb Clarinet which I believe is now made in China. I am very pleased with the quality of it. In fact I can't fault it. The mechanism is nickle plated and of good quality. It even has a correctly made adjustable thumb rest. It plays very well in tune up the entire range, amazing for a plastic clarinet. I replaced the mouthpiece and barrel with a Ridenour set up. It wasn't too bad with the original mouthpiece and barrel anyway but now it sounds great. Incidently , Tom Ridenour,s Lyrique Clarinets are also made in China , and then are sent over to Texas where they tweak em up to a higher standard. Don't underestimate the quality of some Chinese made instruments. But at the moment it's a mixed bag situation. There is still lots of really junky stuff being made there as well , but apparently some quality control is also being maintained with certain brands such as Jupiter.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2010-06-23 23:48)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-06-23 23:51
Barry:
Now that you mentioned it, I think Dave Kessler has also sold a few souped up Chinese made horns under his Custom line. We all know that Ridenour let the Chinese fabricate the instruments so he can concentrate on the matters of regulation, burring, reaming and other set up procedures.
There apparently are not too many individuals in China that have the ability to perform setup, expert hand tone-hole undercutting and so forth. Having this level of care put into the instruments can be of make-or-break difference with the more exquisite objects, and it can separate CSOs from real performing instruments.
Post Edited (2010-06-23 23:53)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-06-24 00:08
Franklin Liao wrote:
> There apparently are not too many individuals in China that
> have the ability to perform setup, expert hand tone-hole
> undercutting and so forth.
Having worked with Chinese manufacturers a bit - that's not true. They have people most capable of doing those things. However, there is as of yet no financial incentive to do that. Even in China well finished work costs significantly more than barely finished work, and until the retailers demand better quality, put QA inspectors in the lines, AND - they and we are ready to pay for it - we will continue to receive substandard merchandise for ridiculously low prices, instead of good merchandise for reasonably low prices.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2010-06-24 00:35
Where do the Chinese students and pros get their instruments? The recent feature in the Clarinet magazine made me wonder for a number of reasons. First, some of the professors mentioned in the article have studied clarinet outside of China at naturally very high levels. They wouldn't put up with garbage instruments at these levels no matter their nationality. Second, 20-some years ago I was a student of Larry McDonald's at Oberlin Conservatory while Fan Lei studied there. His technique was incredible but the instruments he arrived with were indeed garbage. I don't know how much different the political climate was then (I suspect "we" in the US were a little more anti-China than "we" are now.), but it seems to me things there have probably changed by leaps and bounds in general.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-06-24 00:57
I've been seeing Yamaha saxophones and flutes made in China and Indonesia. They are better set up that those that came from the USA plants, and equal the quality of those from Japan. I'm not a fan, in any way, of the student sax from Conn-Selmer. I have yet to see a clarinet made in mainland China that looks good to me.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2010-06-24 01:15
I visited one of the major company factories and saw entry-level instruments being made on the floor. The lack of attention to detail and care was pretty apparent. I doubt that these instruments will see a substantial change with the manufacturing moving to China. Remember, these are starter-level saxes. There are other reasons to be upset about such a move, but quality probably isn't one of them.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-06-24 02:35
Never make a purchase on price alone. (One of Deming's, the quality control guru, fundamental strategies.
Yet, so many parents do exactly that when equipping their children to undertake their first instrumental music experience. It's stupid, give a beginner a tool that doesn't work and expect them to overcome not only the unknown handicaps built into their instrument, but to accomplish some significant learning, too.
In an effort to "get by on a budget," I rented a Jupiter student-grade tenor sax from the company that supplies virtually all of the rental instruments in eastern Washington and north Idaho. I took it to the local big band. SHEESH. I simply would not play. I had it "fixed," and it would not stay in adjustment.
After a few frustrating weeks, I surrendered and returned the Jupiter for use by some other "beginner."
This was a generation or two behind the more respected Jupiter horns getting reviewed now, but it is still in the gene pool and frustrating the next generation of kids.
Perhaps, later generations of Chinese instruments are "acceptable," but in my opinion they are not worth the gamble.
Bob Phillips
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-06-24 08:14
Major flute companies have been doing this for a while now though haven't they? Amadeus from Haynes, Sonare from Powell, Azumi from Altus, etc. They have the body work done in China, and have the headjoints handmade at their factories and account for some outstanding sounding flutes. As long as the products coming out of the factories go through quality control, there shouldn't be any issue. The really cheap "CSO"'s that don't go through the quality control that the major manufactures most likely will go through are what really give Chinese instruments a bad name.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2010-06-24 12:21
It's only a matter of time before the Chinese will be producing instruments that are every bit as good as French, German, or Japanese.
While the instruments may be inferior now, the quality and workmanship will improve quickly.
And my guess is the price points will be much lower than at present.
I know that Steinway is manufacturing pianos (their lower price points) in China. I own an upright piano (Pearl River) that I bought new for $3000 and it plays great and the action is every bit as good as higher priced piano.
Since Selmer is owned by Steinway, it would make sense for them to expand their operations in China - not only to sell into the Chinese market, but to produce instruments at a cheaper price.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-06-24 15:12
"There is nothing that cannot be made a little worse and sold a little cheaper, and those who shop by price alone are this man's lawful prey."
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-06-24 15:53
By the way, also according to Deming (and validated in practice), "quality control" as a checking operation in a manufacturing plant is NOT the way to go.
It is far, far better to make every step to high (and suitable) precision as the product is constructed.
When done right, the final "QC" check will be as simple as looking in the phone to see if the proper memory chip has been inserted.
Certainly NOT having a back-up tech fiddling with pad heights and tone hole undercuts.
Bob Phillips
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Author: eofung
Date: 2010-06-24 22:23
When shopping around for new horns about a month ago, I inquired about the Leblancs... lured by a few friends who played them and sounded great, and also of course, Anthony McGill. I was told by Patty Weir (John Weir's wife, Taplin & Weir) that even THOSE high end clarinets are now being manufactured in Asia, and are falling prey to less skilled manufacturers. Does anyone know anything more about this, or if it is even true? Needless to say, I'm still playing my Buffets, but still curious : )
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-06-24 23:52
Does Leblanc make any top line clarinets at all in the US? Opus II or Concerto II??
Post Edited (2010-06-24 23:53)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-06-25 00:03
Dear eofung, David and GLHopkins:
Leblanc manufactures at Elkhart, while Morrie in Burnaby supplies the barrels and bells for all of his Backun line. Based on my understanding, Morrie does the setup personally for the Symphonie and Legacy top-end professional instruments. The Bliss and the Cadenza are mostly Elkhart made and QCd.
From my own experiences, it is pretty evident that Morrie designed the entire line given their general acoustic traits, but the works done in setup by Backun seems to attribute the most significant difference between the top end and the lower end offerings (smoother keywork mechanics, evenness in resistance and whatnot), with the nicer finishings, platings and keys being secondary in importance.
When I spoke to John Weir two days ago about their instruments, I've gotten the impression that Weir still sources from perhaps Orsi and does the keywork and setup in Canada, instead of building the entire instrument from ground up. I hope additional light can be shed on this for it is clear that Weir and Orsi don't co-brand anymore. From my limited knowledge, only Stephen Fox makes his entire instrument from scratch in Canada.
Although... I have gotten words and did ask Morrie about him making one-off customized clarinets for clients. I know not the specifics on this however. To be frank, I am not even sure if his license agreement would allow him to use the bore and keywork designs made for Symphonie/Legacy for customized instruments.
If Morrie must make a complete departure from the Symphonie for the custom instruments, it would be rather resource and capital intensive, despite him having the equipments to fashion such horns. Logistical factors would point to using the Symphonie joints and re-usable keyworks being made en masse as a logical starting point for a customized horn.
(I was dreaming of a Hamilton 14k Über-Bliss in the key of C you see)
Post Edited (2010-06-25 00:16)
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Author: DougR
Date: 2010-06-26 12:02
Actually, there's no reason on God's green earth that Chinese technicians could NOT make artist-quality instruments--other than the specifications and target price points they're handed by foreign (e.g., Buffet, Leblanc or whomever) manufacturers.
The point Bob Phillips made, that "quality control" should be a quick operation rather than in effect a re-manufacturing process, struck me. Also Mark's point that well-finished Chinese work costs significantly more than barely finished work, thus (I assume) reducing the price advantage of manufacturing in China.
I read somewhere recently (don't remember where offhand) that, when all is said & done and variables accounted for (e.g., moving a manufacturing operation to China gives you a cheaper unit price, but you create shipping, warehousing, and inventorying costs that didn't exist before) the price advantage to manufacturing in China for equivalent goods runs 15-20%. (I understand the Chinese keep their currency artificially low, too, to make their exports more desirable, but that can't go on forever.)
I guess we won't know whether that figure holds true for instruments until China does indeed manufacture equivalent instruments to artist-quality horns made here and in France, Czechoslovakia, Canada, England, etc.
But I also think the true cost of moving manufacturing to China has to be figured in terms of lost domestic manufacturing capability too--and the lost jobs and reduced tax base for localities where the factories used to be--as well.
Frankly, I'm not sure 15-20% is worth that. But, we shall see!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-06-26 13:11
I wonder if they'll have any lead in them? Just don't inhale. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-06-26 19:15
The Czech Amati Klaslice are making quality Clarinets also. Apparently quality control is happening now that the Communists have been kicked out. But that doesn't explain the Chinese situation.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2010-06-26 19:16)
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Author: DougR
Date: 2010-06-27 02:32
What's heartbreaking about the sending-manufacturing-overseas business, especially with regard to instruments, is they're exporting all that knowledge, all the tooling and equipment and, once it's gone, it's gone forever. The equipment alone would cost a fortune to re-aggregate, even assuming anyone would have the capital for such a costly startup.
All those Elkhart factories that have closed, all the craftsmen displaced, all the knowledge that has vanished: what has replaced it all? Jobs at Wal*mart and Home Depot? That's just sad. (Of course, all my horns are French, except my Armstrong flute and the Jupiter alto flute I'm looking to buy, so I'm not exactly leading the charge for stateside jobs either--except in spirit maybe.)
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