 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: medodd
Date: 2010-06-09 18:33
Attachment: DSC_00441024.JPG (59k)
Attachment: DSC_00431024.JPG (35k)
A few years ago I acquired an old Console clarinet (pre-boehm system) in reasonable working order.
All sections bear the serial number 3235 and one section says Foreign. The reed cap bears the name Hawkes & Son London.
It is not plastic but I do not know whether it is wood or some composite.
I should be grateful for any information relating to this model.
Post Edited (2010-06-09 18:41)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-06-09 18:43
Appears to be made from the Bakelite-like (perhaps it is actually Bakelite) material of which some very old clarinets and mouthpieces were made. I have a few of these, it's actually quite a nice material and looks and feels so much like densely-grained grenadilla that it's hard to tell the difference without looking real closely. The downfall of this material may be dimensional stability over time or with exposure to heat --- I've seen a couple of mouthpieces made of this material that had deformed, they looked 'melted'. Needless to say this is an undesirable quality.
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Author: medodd
Date: 2010-06-09 18:54
Thanks for this information. Any idea of the date it was made?
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Author: jasperbay
Date: 2010-06-09 21:32
The Console was marketed by Selmer mostly in the UK, believed to be made in Czechoslovakia (by Kohlert, probably). I'm going to guess 1910-30 since the 'Albert' type keywork was more popular then. If its not well polished grenadilla wood, I'll eat a bakelite outlet box, well a nibble anyway ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) . Looks to be a nice "Albert" type clarinet.
Clark G. Sherwood
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-09 22:10
Looks very much like wood to me.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: medodd
Date: 2010-06-10 14:00
Thanks for the above replies.
I have now learned that this is an Albert system clarinet and probably wood (I hope so as I wouldn't want you to eat, or even nibble, a bakelite outlet box!).
I have heard that these instruments were favoured by traditional jazz players - does anyone else still use them?
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-06-10 15:38
-- "Looks very much like wood to me." --
I have a Console clarinet, though not as old and it's standard Boehm. Bought from Ebay for almost nothing a long time ago.
Logo: "Studente Console Selmer London Foreign"
S.N. #345703
I honestly couldn't work out for ages whether it was wood or plastic and I didn't want to try cutting it. At the time I hadn't realised how humid our basement was and had left a few clarinets down there. One was covered in mould, the Selmer Console wasn't!
Not a very nice way to find out!
Steve
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-06-10 18:32
The old Bakelite (or whatever) material I'm referring to DOES have surface texture very much like wood -- it is not completely shiny and smooth like modern molded plastics. Thus I'm not convinced that the clarinet in question is made of wood.
The best way to find out is to find an inconspicuous spot and grind, file, or sand it a bit, to see what sort of powder comes off.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-06-10 22:24
Chris: what do you mean by "vessel pattern"?
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-10 23:47
... or what smell it makes.
I've only ever seen Albert/simple systems in wood or ebonite (and also metal) - never in plastics such as Bakelite or ABS. The regular pitting seen on the bell is more typical of grenadilla than any other substance.
It's too wood to be true!
Maybe a photo taken in brighter light will reveal the grain much better (although it can just be seen on the right side).
Wood has vessels in it so water and nutrients can travel from the roots right up to the highest branches by capillary action. These vessels show up on finished instruments by indented lines and dots on the surface as they've been cut through exposing them along part of their length or straight across the ends. Sometimes large vessels are evident and wood with these open pores often gets mistakenly called 'open grain'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-06-10 23:54)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-06-11 01:00
Maybe we should just paraphrase Duke Ellington's famous line and say, "if it looks wood, it IS wood".
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2010-06-11 13:22
medodd: to address your other questions: your horn is that type of Albert known in the UK as "simple system". Various Albert designs were made with anywhere from 2 to 6 rings, with or without roller keys on the lower stack. Many early jazz players used Albert horns - it is theorized by some that this was because one of the big early jazz clarinet teachers, Lorenzo Tio, played an Albert and his students copied him. Later in the 1920s Selmer introduced their improved Albert and a number of well known players used that. Ed Hall, in his later years,sometimes played a Hammerschmidt Oehler which he picked up in Germany while on the road with Louis Armstrong's all stars. However many other players used/use boehm system. I think it depends where you start. Having played both systems I don't think one is inherently superior to the other for jazz. Lately I've moved to Oehler for my playing - seems to have some advantages of both Albert & Boehm
I'd guess your horn dates from 1900 - 1920 based on keywork and a few other things - Hawkes & Son became Boosey &Hawkes around 1930 although old stock may have postdated the merger by a while...
these kind of horns are still made for the klezmer and middle-eastern markets. The lack of rings makes slurring and partial hole covering easier
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-06-11 14:30
I've been playing my Boehm and Oehler clarinets (Bb and bass) about equally these last few months, and in running through my orchestral excerpt books I've gotten the feeling that many of the German works (e.g. Brahms) are slightly easier fingering-wise on the Oehler system, while French works (e.g. Ravel) are easier on Boehm system. But on the average I agree with Chris M. that neither system seems inherently superior to the other.
Where there is a real difference is with the bass clarinets --- the Oehler-system bass clarinet has a much smaller bore than does the Boehm-system bass, and this makes a huge difference in how they sound and respond. The soprano clarinets, in contrast, have similar bore sizes (Oehler vs. Boehm) so the instruments feel and respond much more similarly to each other.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-06-11 15:22
I definitely find playing Brahms on an Oehler system much more rewarding - there's an extra element or edge to it that I don't find when playing Brahms on a Boehm system.
The biggest snag I find with Oehler systems is the lower register LH notes - especially Eb-F or F-Eb as they're both with the side keys for the best tone quality as the forked fingering for Eb is too sharp in pitch. The throat Bb is only available as the A+Sp key fingering - no side Bb key for a better Bb as on Boehm systems, though the usual resonance fingerings do help. Upper register has such beauty in the tone quality of the forked fingerings for high Bb and C that Boehm systems can't really compete with (unless you have the forked Bb mechanism on your Boehm system).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-06-13 03:35
jasperbay: If the instrument was made by Kohlert between 1910 and 1930, it would have been in Bohemia. The area became Czecho-Slovakia before WWII. The Nazis moved Kohlert to Germany during the war to try to secure an additional source of income. The Nazis didn't bother to take all the tools with them, so the quality dropped. After the war, the workers spread around Europe and some to the United States (including some back to Czechoslovakia). Many continued to use the Kohlert name, but none ever quite got the quality back to pre-war levels. I have a Selmer Centered Tone, Series 9, and Series 10. My Czecho-Slovakia Kohlert is clearly within the same ballpark.
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