 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-06-01 01:58
Advancing beginner here.
I still get a fair amount of "grunt" when going to the middle register (Clarion) A, B and C. I play a #3 VD V-12 reed on a VD M-13 Lyre mp, and a Selmer Signet Special clarinet. I do pretty good on tone when slurring in that area, but I can't seem to get rid of "the grunt" when tonguing.
Any hints on what to check? Also, one of these days I will consider getting a pro grade clarinet...especially if I test and it's not grunting!
As usual, I really appreciate you.
Carl
CarlT
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-06-01 02:27
It's probably not the clarinet, at least judging from my experience. I have the same problem, but several better players have tried the horn (an R-13) without any grunt.
I suspect in my case it's due to not yet having overcome an old habit of biting, instead of doing the "pipe wrench" jaw thing and using the RH thumb to push the mouthpiece up and in a bit (opposed by the lip muscles) to get the right amount of reed in my mouth.
I look forward to the advice given on this topic, because it's pretty frustrating.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2010-06-01 03:25
Keep your embouchure and jaw position (i.e. "bite") on the mouthpiece completely still. Don't move 'em at all!
I think the grunt will go away as you do this AND as you also remember that "high" notes on the clarinet need LESS air than "low" notes do.
My one adult re-beginner student has been pleasantly surprised at how much easier things are with this in mind! (Of course it's always hard to keep it in mind when your gut reaction is to blow harder/bite/etc. when ascending, but take it one step at a time!)
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Author: sangwon
Date: 2010-06-01 03:46
try voicing higher than the note you play
play a high C (above the staff) with the sound you like
don't change anything in the embouchure, then play the middle register stuff
or it maybe your tongue position
raise the tongue higher in your mouth
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-06-01 07:30
You may have 2 issues, one is your embouchure, and or what Tony posted.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: Fishamble
Date: 2010-06-01 09:15
This is the at the low end of the clarion register?
Post Edited (2010-06-02 16:12)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-06-01 13:24
It might be worth underlining what I see as the important part of the post I referenced.
It's tempting to think that when you get the grunt you're doing one something 'wrong', and that therefore you're not doing the 'right' thing, and moreover that that 'right' thing is describable.
What playing the grunt 'deliberately' shows you is that the 'thing' that you do to produce it is actually a combination of several things, of which the two most important are embouchure and tongue position, though air pressure comes into it too. It may take a little time to get the combination 'right'.
And of course, when you've figured out WHAT you're trying to avoid, it's...well, much easier to avoid it:-)
Tony
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-06-01 13:56
There have been several good suggestions made above and each of them could be the solution to your problem. The problem here is figuring out actually what the problem is for you. I've seen that cured in a few cases by changing the register tube or even having it raised closer to the top of the top joint. But more often than not I agree it is something you are doing, or not doing, that is the cause. Without seeing and hearing you play it is not possible to pin point the problem but from my experiences I would guess it's most likely your tongue position in that register. Therefor I suggest you experiment with the placement of your tongue. Higher in front, lower in front, higher in back by your molars, lower in back and a combination of all of those. It is also possible that you are closing off, choking slightly, in your throat in that register. (That would be like bending a water hose while having the water go through it.) Finding the right combination may be the solution. Of course you do have to sustain a good embouchure and have good breath support as well. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-06-01 20:14
Thanks to all who replied.
Fishamble asked, "This is the at the low end of the clarion register?".
No, actually, I was trying to describe the top 3 notes of the clarion register...
A, B and C, especially B and C.
My plan is to work on most of the things you all told me to do (don't think I will mess with changing the register key though, Ed, as I don't want to put any more money in this clarinet before buying a new, hopefully, better one).
I also will try my mouthpiece setup on a pro model just to see if it actually could be the clarinet. I am doubting that it is the clarinet, and I will continue working on the embouchure and tongue position as advised.
Oh, and I thought Mr. Pay's advice about actually working on THE GRUNT was very good (if I could learn HOW to do it, then maybe I can also learn HOW NOT to do it). Tom Ridenour was also mentioning that type of thing in his book, "The Educator's Guide to the Clarinet" that I was reading just yesterday, so that makes much sense to me.
Again, thank you.
CarlT
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Author: TianL
Date: 2010-06-01 20:20
what happen when you start the note without the tongue? like, set your embouchure, with the tongue not on the reed, then blow.
if you can produce the note without the grunt, then it's probably your tongue is acting too hard on the reed. (Then the solution would be play a long notes and use the tongue to lightly interrupt the note.)
if you can't produce the note without the grunt, then it's probably your embouchure. (Then the solution would be figure out what is wrong with your embouchure.)
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Author: William
Date: 2010-06-01 22:31
Russell Dagon recommended this excersise to help eliminate the grunt: tongue a series of four notes (quarters, not too fast) starting on C6 with the register key "on" and then, four more with the register key "off" but still maintaining the C6 sound. Repeat this decending by half-steps as far as you can with your goal being C5. If you can tongue four C5's without the register key, your embouchure will have learned to eliminate the "grunt". I never reached that goal, but it did help get rid of the sound before each note and clean up my articulation. Try it....can't hurt.
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-06-01 23:50
I've noticed while working on this problem that I can hear a very faint undertone in the clarion G up to C even during long tones (on three different mouthpieces and two different barrels), and I can't seem to make it go away. I've tried various tongue and throat positions, and can play without the register key (not tongued) down to a D, sometimes a C. Any further suggestions?
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Chetclarinet
Date: 2010-06-02 12:25
Try an air first start to the upper g-c notes using the shhhh---tah syllable. Shhh first , then tah with the tongue in one continuous motion.Stanley Hasty suggested this to me years ago. I use it all the time on bass clarinet to start dependably in all registers.
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2011-01-24 20:21
I posted previously here about "solving" my high clarion issues using various ligatures, reeds, mouthpieces. And to some extent that was true, at least for short periods of time. And I apologize to anyone who spent $ as a result of what I wrote (if it didn't help LOL). But I have to say at this point that clarion Ab through C stability, especially in wide leaps or jumps to or from altissimo, is still the main thing keeping me from moving forward as quickly as I want with my gospel/jazz improvisations. I have good moments and bad, mostly I get by, but I'm never confident for long- and it limits what I can do. :-( I WANT TO MOVE ON FROM THIS ISSUE.
Since my last (deleted) post I've switched from a Yamaha YCL61 (1970's) to a "big bore" Leblanc Dynamic 2 (1950's). That was a plus, especially in the low to mid transitions (low clarion B is very nice!), but no real change in the upper stuff.
I've listened and relistened to many of Tom Ridenour's YouTube videos where he identifies upper clarion stability as a common weak point of many clarinet designs. He claims (and others verify) that his own acoustic designs (Leblanc Opus, Ridenour 147, through latest Arioso and Lyrique) are more stable than many others. But even he admits A B C stability is STILL AN ISSUE, to the point that he suggests alternate long pipe fingerings for those notes in certain situations, basically making those notes as odd to play as the upper altissimo (pretty much every note is fingered completely differently from its neighbors- ugh). And my own problems have actually been quite uniform on many varying clarinets, so ultimately I may still have an embouchure issue. Or, as I suspect, this is just a universal problem for all players on all instruments- it's just worse for some players, some horns, and some music than for others. One day I may fork over the $700 to $1000 for a Lyrique and perhaps my problems will go away. Meanwhile I have a Ridenour barrel on order, it's worth a try.
So I keep playing and hoping that one day stability will arrive for good.
YouTube user "fskelley".
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
Post Edited (2011-10-23 23:30)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2011-11-16 14:22
Attachment: DSC06142.JPG (1041k)
Attachment: DSC06141.JPG (794k)
Things have settled a bit for me. Clarion G through C is still my touchiest and least stable range, but most of the time I sail on by with no issue. Perhaps one day I will become totally confident there LOL. I think it unlikely at this point that any further equipment change will ever help. I'm now using a Leblanc Dynamic 2, Vandoren 2RV (planning to try a 5JB), an old metal Buffet ligature (better for me than Optimum or Klassic or Bois or Rovner or many others), and Legere 2.5 reeds (better for me than a whole range of cane or other synthetic reeds with or without clipping and sanding).
I just posted another clarinet solo at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MN-QkgduHU.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-11-16 16:26
From repairing clarinets for a long time what helps a lot is actually the clarinet's thumb octive key as well as a slightly tonguing on the hard side.
What to do? I'd bend the octive key as close as you can to the thumb position, I bend it until it is barely open. Added to this is using a cork pad and slim it down until it just slightly cover the hole. This alone will get most the the thug/grunt.
The other tip would be to be sure you are tonguing on the lighter side and slightly back from the tip of the reed.
Perhaps the final tip is keep the air pressure going, when tunguing lightly. It may take a few weeks or more to learn the true art of tonguing very lightly. I'd start with an open G, then add a note and then 3 note, on and on...
This grunt may remain, but you will hardly notice it.
You should probably have a really good repairman cut and shape the cork.
On your A clarinet inside the octive key has a fairly long tube. There's 2 places that I know of that sell a smaller tube. Both are very good and results with better air flow.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2012-07-21 17:40)
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Author: fskelley
Date: 2012-07-21 17:27
Further update now that I'm 2 years into my middle age clarinet renaissance. :-) After many failed attempts to settle on a single configuration, I've ended up pretty much trial and error EVERY DAY. I can always find a combination of reed (all Legere 2.25's), ligature (Vandoren Optimum or old Leblanc L or Rovner), ligature position (high low or middle), and ligature tension (moderate to super tight) that will allow me to confidently play all ranges. But if I set it up the same way tomorrow (even if I leave it assembled overnight) it probably will need more tinkering to be right again. Fortunately I've gotten pretty quick in my fiddling and can generally diagnose what direction to go. Apparently none of this is a precise science, not for me anyway. I have found great freedom from relaxing about this whole issue.
I just posted another clarinet solo at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqJzSRbe-ms. "I Am a Pilgrim" a la Tennessee Ernie Ford.
Stan in Orlando
EWI 4000S with modifications
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