 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-05-25 04:49
A sadder fact is that these instruments are total crap - what a waste. My student (before she became one) and her parents got hosed for $400 on a Cecilio clarinet that came with loose rings and a barrel that didn't fit.
Post Edited (2010-05-25 04:51)
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Author: DixieSax
Date: 2010-05-25 06:43
The really sad thing is that such beautiful and such rare timber is wasted on crap like the bad student rosewood clarinets.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-25 08:37
What a waste indeed! I wondered where they sourced the rosewood from as it does look good, but at what price? Some nations more than others have no scruples.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2010-05-25 13:34
Absolutely disgusting and maddening! Even when I was doing furniture making more than 20 years ago, those exotic woods were getting scarce and were sold by the pound. Very soon, there won't be enough to make toothpicks but it's not surprising at all.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-05-25 13:56
The wood used in these crap clarinets isn't seasoned well enough. People would be better off with rubber bodies if they have to have a cheap chinese cso.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-25 14:03
I doubt if it's seasoned at all, so it's a pointless and costly exercise making useless clarinets and furniture from unsustainable timber. I wondered where they were getting the rosewood for the junk seen listed on eBay, and it's even more sobering to know. What a time we all live in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2010-05-25 14:42
It reminds me of the killing of animals for ivory, tigers and bears for their organs until they are all gone. It says a lot about those who supposed to be "in charge".
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-05-26 03:04
Madagascar apparently, and from the article posted above by GBK it is open season in the rain forest. But it gets worse . Look up on the internet --- ABCP The African Blackwood Tree. Makes for interesting reading. High quality ,and even perhaps good quality Ebony is being exploited to such an extent that the supply is already beginning to run out. But don't worry , there will always be a good supply of the lower grade material, but in the near future expect to pay up to something like $US12,000 for a clarinet made out of high quality black wood, that's if your are silly enough. BUT say some , they are planting more trees ! Well here's the bad news , there was/ is a program of tree planting that started in some areas of Mozambigue and Tanzania about 20 years ago but it takes this type of tree approximately 70 years to mature. that's if it survives the wood borers which apparently love the stuff. Even here in Australia there is some sort of scheme up in Queensland to start up a plantation, but early days yet. So hang in there folks for another 50 years. Welcome to the modern world of resources depletion. Here's the good news. Don't think you can afford a $US 12. 000 clarinet , then get a well made Ebonite (hard rubber) instrument , it will sound just as good.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2010-05-26 03:54
Someone needs to make a great clarinet out of bamboo. Renewable, hardwood, and grown in China. I'll be the first to place my order.
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-05-26 07:32
Barry Vincent said: " then get a well made Ebonite (hard rubber) instrument , it will sound just as good."
Not only that, they are more consistant and you don't have to worry and fuss with them cracking...
Justme
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-05-26 13:38
And there's no reason why metal clarinets can't be as good as wooden ones. I'll admit to sharing the general prejudice against metal clarinets, even though I own a couple of good ones (H. Bettoney Silva Bets), because most of the old metal clarinets I've tried are cheap student models. Plastic -- same deal (my E-flat contra is plastic and excellent), except I don't own any good plastic sopranos. But if Buffet, Selmer or Leblanc made a top-quality pro model in metal or plastic, persuaded a major soloist to use it and gave maximum publicity to the endangerment of exotic hardwoods, things could change.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-05-26 14:18
Test the GreenLine material - and you will know, where the future goes ;-) I would assume, the ebonite will come a revival-material and the wood-compound-"alloys" too.
Time is running out for wooden horns in the low price segment - due to ecological and quality reasons. All of them are scrap or of minor quality at most. But the "plastic" horns grow better and better.
Let's wait some years, we'll see a new wave of plastics ;-)
kindly
Roman
a really fan of non-wood horns...
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-05-26 19:23
Yes RoBass ,plastic has the potential of be fantastic. I recently got myself the Jupiter 631 'student' Clarinet and I'm amazed at it's quality. I'm using it as my 'knock-about ' instrument and have already played it at a couple of outdoor weddings with no problems anyone hearing me. One of these weddings was on a day when we were having an Australian heat wave. No way would I take my good wooden instrument out in those conditions. It proves to me that the Clarinet makers can make a quality instrument out of plastic if they want to. Later on I may also get myself the German made Schrieber 6010 with the wrap around speaker key. This is also apparently a quality plastic instrument.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-26 21:22
Howarth made several plastic S1 clarinets in the '90s, but the problem with plastic is the prejudice it receives as it's considered inferior to wood and players will generally associate plastic with mass produced student instruments regardless that plastic pro level clarinets are made in the same (and probably more) manufacturing processes as wooden ones.
Plastic is a much more difficult material to work with compared to wood when machining as plastics will tend to melt if the working temperature becomes too great (so plastic joints may have to be machined at a lower speed compared to wood), the swarf doesn't self clear which can wrap itself around the turnning joint and damage the finish (or do much worse) and the joints can distort while held in between centres when they expand as the temperature increases.
Also it's difficult to get an even high gloss finish on some plastics as you'd expect with a wooden instrument as there's a risk of melting the plastic when buffing (some makers scratch up their wooden ones to make them look even more wooden!) and an even matt finish can be just as difficult to produce.
Other problems include the greater risk of pillar threads in the body stripping and also having to make allowances (ie. greater end play) between key barrels and their pillars relative to the length of key barrel so they don't bind up in the cold. And the biggest problem to plague plastic instruments is the notoriously weak middle tenon which usually tends to break off if knocked over.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-05-27 02:58
Chris said: " but the problem with plastic is the prejudice it receives as it's considered inferior to wood."
Chris, this prejudice also exists against rubber and anything else that isn't wood, even though whenever they have these blind tests of other materials versus wood that I've read about in the past, the results are that they can't tell the difference.
The only difference seems to be that some players themselves can hear the difference while playing the instument ( the vibration of the material?), but all that are listening seem to be not able to tell the difference.
We are talking well designed instruments when referring to the non-wood ones of course.
Justme
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
Post Edited (2010-05-27 03:03)
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Author: Ursa
Date: 2010-05-27 04:13
I have clarinets in wood, plastic, hard rubber, and metal--and can make them all sound good. If wood someday becomes prohibitively expensive, it'll be a complete non-event for me.
Yet...it saddens me to note that while the supply of good wood is running low, there is no shortage of good used wooden instruments for sale, especially intermediate-level horns. On Craigslist and on online auctions, dozens of Selmer Signets, Normandys, Noblets, and other serviceable wooden horns go unsold every week, even at near-giveaway prices. If only more of these instruments could be put back into service, perhaps the supply of available wood could be stretched out instead of gobbled up cranking out more E-11s for the masses.
Of course, that'll never happen...at least not until the price of an E-11 begins to approach $2K or so.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-05-27 04:35
>> The only difference seems to be that some players themselves can hear the difference while playing the instument ( the vibration of the material?), but all that are listening seem to be not able to tell the difference. <<
Don't give too much significance to this. Most players are biased and the level of a player has nothing to do with their ability to be objective about this. However, regardless what affects what, it makes sense to choose an instrument based on how it feels to you when you play vs. only how it sounds to an audience.
Post Edited (2010-05-27 05:40)
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-05-27 09:08
The problem is not the (modern) material itself but the lacking experience and knowledge of the clarinet makers about. Most of them are experts with the Grenadilla, but they hate and avoid ebonite and/or other synthetic stuff.
That's the problem.
The material matters, and the geometry and manufacturing procedure is to adapt well. If you don't so, the result must come horrible (lie we know about well;-).
See Tom Ridenour in USA or Hanson in GB! Both of them ventured a trip inside new fields, and both of them did/do impressive instruments! See the market allover, and you'll find, that poor quality instruments from wood are often as fine synthetic too...
The mind of the players has to shape, and I assume the GreenLine philosophy a good way - use the rests instead of burning, do a fine job on a fine and modern material... Should be the way, or what.?
kindly
Roman
PS: One very important person in my life gave me a hint many years ago. He said: "New theory don't make the way by the best arguments. It only enforces by the dead of the former theory's spokesmen." He's right ;-) Let us wait and see!
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