 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-05-17 21:02
Will be playing the Clarinet 3 book (bass clarinet and sopranos in A, C, and Eb) in Mahler's 1st with our friendly local orchestra. Upon receiving the book early last week I was surprised to see that about half of the music is for the C clarinet. As I am terminally lazy when it comes to transposition I did a quick Internet search for C clarinets and found one of everyone's favorite CSOs, a Chinese-made hard-rubber instrument marketed by Berkeley Wind in California. Cost $195 with free shipping(!). I took a chance and ordered one, it arrived three days later (four days ago as I write this).
The instrument is actually better than I expected. Synopsis first, then the details.
Intonation: Excellent until high clarion C, then that note and all of the altissimo are quite flat.
Tone: No basis for comparison as I've never played another C clarinet, but seems fine to me (using a good Bb clarinet mouthpiece and decent reed).
Ergonomics: Needed lots of tweaking -- details to follow.
Quality of construction: Mediocre at best -- details to follow.
Now the details. It took me about 4-5 hours of play-testing/working on the instrument/play-testing to get the Berkeley to where I'm comfortable performing on it in public.
Intonation --- below the high C, the minor intonation discrepancies I heard were easily fixed by adjusting pad opening heights. However, from C and up into the altissimo I haven't found a solution to the severe flatness yet, other than to use resonance/alternate fingerings which I'm starting to mess around with. My theory about this is that the instrument seems to be built to about the same bore diameter as a Bb clarinet (based on it using a Bb clarinet mouthpiece), whereas acoustically the bore should be a bit smaller. But this is just speculation. Two barrels were provided with the instrument, of nearly identical length (?) -- I used the (very slightly) shorter of the two, pushed all the way in.
Ergonomics --- Just like when playing Eb clarinet, my fingers are too wide for the keys (and my hand position is generally lousy) so I tend to bump into adjacent keys or rings. To remedy this I did the following:
-- Narrowed the throat "A" key considerably and bent it to the right; narrowed both sliver keys substantially (and cut about 1/8" of length off the upper sliver key) and recurved the upper one as well.
-- Shortened the register key spatula slightly and dug a slight hollow in the instrument body underneath it so the key could sit slightly below the surface when closed (to prevent bumping it when operating the thumb ring).
-- Bent both bridge keys to meet along a slight diagonal to allow me to rotate the lower joint clockwise (as viewed from above) relative to the upper joint; and bent both l.h. spatula levers to the right, so that I don't have to rotate my left wrist to operate those two spatulas.
Materials and construction --- Cheap, soft brass keywork with very thin nickel plating. Very easy to bend. Sharp plating flash on the inside of the upper and lower rings, which I could actually feel when covering those rings with my fingertips (solution: filed and sanded off the sharp edges on the inner rims of the rings).
Of most concern to me, the bridge key had been crudely filed or ground by the manufacturer to avoid hitting the C#/G# key, and so much material had been removed that the bridge key is barely more than paper-thin and is clearly going to have to be reinforced somehow or it will bend and eventually break in the near future.
Looking inside the tonehole chimneys, what they call "undercutting" appears to be some very crude flaring of the bore-side inner wall of the toneholes, complete with what looks like molding flash.
Given how cheaply the thing is made, I'm amazed at how well it now plays! So I figure that for the very occasional use this clarinet will get, I've gotten a good deal at $195 purchase cost plus about 4-5 hours of my labor to make it semi-right. It acquitted itself well at orchestra rehearsal yesterday, although my altissimo notes were atrocious as I haven't quite nailed down the alternate fingerings to use up there. But from high C downward the clarinet sounded quite respectable, and I found it very comfortable with all the modifications to the keywork.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-05-17 21:12
Every clarinet player that plays in an orchestra, no matter what the quality is, should learn to transpose from a C clarinet part, that should be a given. At least that's my opinion. When you practice just take an old etude book you own that's not to difficult and read one each day in "C". After a few weeks, maybe months if you're a slow learner, you will be able to transpose easily. There is a good deal of orchestra music written in C clarinet. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-17 21:14
I missed out on a Weril C clarinet that went for £50 in a local junk shop (although I do know who bought it) - it looked very Leblanc-ish, and even had a LH Ab/Eb lever!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-05-17 21:15)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-05-17 21:21
Lemme do the math...$200 for the honker, 5 hours of tech work, ka-ching, another $200, makes >$400 for a playable instrument with some leftover intonation issues.
Last time I looked, the Amati ACL-251 was under $400. (but it might require some tweaking too...)
BTW - as you have two barrels, can't you shorten the shorter one a bit more? Then you can lip up the higher notes and use a more relaxed embouchure for the lower ones...
But I admire your audacity. Take the plunge(r) and do what's necessary. Cool!
Now I'm reminded of my Low D bass extension...
--
Ben
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-05-17 23:17
Tom Ridinour has a recording on his website of someone playing Toms "C" clarinet. It was a great recording and the sound quality was excellent; at least in my opinion! I think it was a concerto written for the C clarinet. I can't remember for sure.
I don't think his horns are very expensive.
I don't own a C clarinet, because I transpose everything, but based on what I heard with the recording on Toms site I'd test that horn. As most of you know Tom offers a trial, if you don't like it send it back.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2010-05-18 01:10
"Intonation: Excellent until high clarion C, then that note and all of the altissimo are quite flat."
Dave, I had the same experience with my 40+-year-old Buffet C clarinet. All this was solved about 5 years ago when I came into possession of a Morgan RM-06 mouthpiece, which miraculously fixed the intonation problems, and at the same time greatly improved the instrument's tone.
Ed, I totally agree that every clarinet player ought to learn to transpose C clarinet music to the Bb (or even A) clarinet. Nevertheless, when you have experienced the difference the unique quality of the C clarinet gives to certain Strauss and Mahler (e.g.) parts, you are likely to be less satisfied with playing those works on the one-size-fits-all!
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-05-18 01:34
David, thanks for the review. I've been very curious about that clarinet, and now I know that I want nothing to do with it--I don't have your technical skills.
I wish I had more practice time to spare for learning transposition.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-05-18 03:03
Interesting replies, all!
Ed, you're absolutely right that I should learn to transpose the C part onto the Bb horn, and I can do so already with some difficulty. But the concert is in just two weeks, I'm mostly used on bass clarinet so I almost never play a C part, and the C clarinet does indeed, as Larry writes, have a unique sound (about halfway between 'eefer' and 'beefer', as you might expect). Having played it now with a good clarinet section I can see how Mahler meant for that particular sound to be used there.
By the way, Larry, I was able to enlist the services of your former standmate Bill Wright to play Eb with us for this work, so he's been telling me all kinds of stories about you! ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-05-18 04:41
Just want to say that after trying many Chinese clarinets recently, there are huge improvments and they vary from worse than what you describe this one to much much better.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-18 10:19
Although it's good practice to be able to transpose C clarinet parts at sight, sometimes the character of the C clarinet and also if the part is much easier to play on a C clarinet pays off.
I used to be able to sight transpose concert pitch parts on Bb and A clarinets as well as Bb parts on A, but having not done that for neary 20 years I just want the easy option - if that means borrowing a C clarinet, so be it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2010-05-18 13:28
"By the way, Larry, I was able to enlist the services of your former standmate Bill Wright to play Eb with us for this work, so he's been telling me all kinds of stories about you!"
No truth to any of them!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-05-18 14:57
Larry is right of course that using a C clarinet for certain works would be very beneficial. Yes, many Strauss pieces, especially his wind symphonies and some Mahler. When we played the Alpine Symphony by Strauss a few years ago, for my second time, my part was bass clarinet and C clarinet, 3/4 C clarinet and mostly up in the high register. I wished I owned a good C clarinet then, but because of intonation problems, playing in unisons with the flutes and piccolo so much, it would have had to be a very good C clarinet. The problem with playing bass clarinet in the Mahler symphonies is that you not only have to have your bass but in 1-5 most, of the time, you already need your Bb and A too. In his 1st you need your Eb too, in his 5th it calls for a D clarinet too, I play that on my Bb since it's all in tutti passages. Having one more clarinet, a C, to try to keep in tune is a problem I don't need, it's already a task, not to mention carry and setting them all up, especially when on the road. Sure would have liked one for the Alpine Symphony though. ESP
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-18 15:47
Having never played a C clarinet in anger (only play tested a couple of Noblet C clarinets I rebuilt), I was pleasantly surprised at how easy a Leblanc LL C clarinet played for me, and definitely wouldn't mind one of these for myself - or a very good copy of one.
I can't say anything about Buffet or Selmer C clarinets as I've never tried them - though I've heard good reviews about the Buffet E11 C clarinet, and there are plenty of people singing the praises of the Forte C clarinet.
Although all intermediate and pro C clarinets do come with a relatively high price, it would be good if the big companies that also make student instruments could perhaps make an affordable plastic C clarinet with as near to the same properties as their pro models.
I wonder if Yamaha will ever venture into making C clarinets (200, 600 and 800 series)?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-05-18 16:29
For what it's worth I have a plastic Amati 251 in C and am quite pleased with it.
--
Ben
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-05-18 21:37
It's been a while since I tried the Amati bass clarinets but they were so poorly made they would barley play because the keys bent so easily from just looking at them. I assume they improved their quality, that was some time ago. ESP
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Author: Blake_McGee
Date: 2010-05-18 23:52
Maybe I'm crazy, but I think of a C clarinet as a really nice sounding Eb! I often transpose Eb parts to C clarinet and get lots of comments on how great my Eb playing is without anyone being the wiser.
Till? C.
Ginestera? C for sure!!
It's funny - some C parts I think sound better on Bb clarinet, especially more lyrical passages (like in any Mozart opera), and so I'll transpose them. However, with something like the Mahler, I think that the C clarinet provides a more appropriate sound for those particular passages. I just played Barber of Seville and split the C parts down the middle, depending on context.
Anyone else do this?
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-05-19 06:56
I have an amati wooden bass and the keys don't bend at all. I have not had to have it overhauled in six years. It stays in regulation. Downsides are that it rattles because the pivot screws aren't a snug fit, and I have to go round tightening the screws fairly frequently otherwise it appears to go out of regulation (and eventually fall apart). But if you do that, then it holds up well.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-19 11:14
Just seen on Facebook that Howarth are giving the new Amati C clarinet the thumbs up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: howarth
Date: 2010-05-19 11:26
Indeed we are giving the Amati C the thumbs up! We have been testing the ACL354 model recently and have been very impressed with it as a value for money instrument. Amati have also just changed the design slightly to help with the pitch issues on the long B, which is a great improvement.
While the instrument is certainly not pitch perfect, it does represent in our minds great value for money for a wooden C clarinet when compared to anything else available.
Clarinet Department
Howarth of London
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-05-19 12:34
And they offer the LH Ab/Eb lever on some of them - one of the plastic bodied ones and a wooden one.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-05-19 14:47
Amati obviously has improved their quality over the years, good for them. ESP
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