 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: timg
Date: 2010-05-13 20:38
I'm wrestling with an awkward movement from one note to another, namely from ![[Eb4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/eb4.gif) to the ![[C5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c5.gif) with LH pinky.
So long as my LH ring-finger is resting on the clarinet, I can move amongst the LH spatula keys reasonably well. But after lifting the ring finger I'm having trouble landing back on the 'C'. Curling the 5th finger for the 'C' key causes the 4th finger to curl too and miss the tone-hole. As far as I remember this is because these two fingers share a tendon.
Any thoughts or hints much appreciated.
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Author: susieray
Date: 2010-05-13 21:14
I would play the Eb with the 1/1 fingering which would make it easy to go from there to the C. Unless I am misunderstanding your question?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-05-13 21:46
Reverse the pattern. That is, go down from the C to the Eb. As you do this, make the absolute minimum finger movements.
Lift your right hand fingers, and perhaps rotate your right wrist slightly, "nudging" the side key open with the side of your right index finger and keeping your fingertips above the holes.
At the same time, raise your left ring finger and pinky, keeping them just above the hole and key.
Then do exactly the reverse, again with minimum motion.
The tendon connection shouldn't interfere. In fact, it should help, since you're raising and lowering your left pinky and ring finger together.
Also, try playing the C with your right pinky. That way, your entire right hand can move as a unit, and you won't have the left hand interference.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-05-14 00:56
The 1-1 Eb is out of tune; but useful when the Eb doesn't linger for very long.
It remains a mystery to me why Bb5 is great with the 1-1, but the 12th below Eb 1-1 is bad.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-05-14 03:15
Bob, the answer to your mystery question is simple. The answer is "because". ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-05-14 17:36
I just understood your post.
I too "curl" the pinkies .............. a result of the fingers being positioned more perpendicular to the length of the clarinet than angled downward.
I don't, however have the coordination problem of the fourth and fifth fingers. Presumabley this is just a matter of practice. Both the left and right "C" keys should be relatively easy to use in the above situation.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: timg
Date: 2010-05-15 22:52
Hi everybody, and thanks for the comments.
Clarnibass, yep, D4 to C5 is just the same. The right hand is ok; the trouble is with the left. I'd play the C5 with the RH key, but - you guessed it - the next note is Eb5. And anyway I should learn to make these slightly awkward movements.
Paul, I'm sure you're right about it being a question of practice. Oddly I can make this movement much more easily with my right hand, although I'm left-handed.
Ken, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Practicing C5 to Eb4 in the manner you suggested has helped a lot. Now when playing the exercise I find that if I rest my LH 5th finger on the C-key just before playing the Eb, I can raise and lower the LH 4th and 5th fingers together much more accurately, and with less movement. Thanks very much!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-05-16 08:10
All your fingers should be almost straight. Right now, your fingers are all curved and your hand is too close to the clarinet. Your LH thumb should be at an angle to the length of the clarinet.
Here is a trick I use to teach a "natural position".
Put your thumb on the thumb tube and your pinky on the LH C or C# key. Keep the pinky almost straight, only having a slight relaxed curve. Then place the other fingers on the holes.
This idea should help you find a good position. Experiment.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-05-18 12:11
...and to train your pinky use a penny on the table! Set all the fingers on table in a straight line and rest your pinky alone on the penny.
Then move it around in a square pattern - up-right-down-left (side length appr. 1-2cm).
This exercise should be done well concentrated without moving your ring finger.
Mostly it's a question of concentration and proprioceptive nervous system. Could be trained both... ;-)
kindly
Roman
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-05-18 12:37
I could not disagree with "skygardener" more!
I don't see anything wrong with taking a position with the fingers perpendicular to the horn. This position necessitates the curved left pinky.
In addition, I have been recently incorporating a Right thumb position that is angled slightly UPWARD. This has the same effect on the RIGHT pinky and I now have a perfectly matched system.
I have heard the argument that a straightened pinky has more fulcrum, or energy or such. This is not necessarily true. And you also run into the situation of trying to reach all the keys with the same attitude to the finger which gives you much less mechanical dexterity with which to work.
See the aforementioned "penny exercise" submitted by Roman......sounds good!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-05-18 14:36
Oh yeah, now I read skygardener's recommendation too ;-/ No no, there's no golden way for the "right" hand position!
Every clarinetist has to find his own best position. Some may held it as a claw, some do it straightened (most doublers coming from the sax I know;-), some roll and bend teirs hand almost new...
The best position is a relaxed and flexible, like given by natural tension in the hand. I recommend to everyone to loose all muscle tension and to inspect the resulting hand position well. Then insert your horn into this relaxed hand - yeah, it fits!
I've learned it from the double bass, where you have to put at least 2-2.5kg per finger to the string! This you can't produce starting from a pretensioned finger position. You have to be fully relaxed and then to "fire" the finger as a hammerhead or snapping spring. To observe a pizzing string player during 1/16 notes is a very good example for the possible power if you unleash the finger from a relaxed position.
The same is valid for the fingers on clarinet (but there less tensioned only to 0,5-1kg;-). They should be relaxed as possible in a resting position but tensioned enough to close the holes and buttons in working position.
Tom R. has published a well known procedure to train the "evil pinky" on the clarinet ;-) Search Youtube for!
That's my way - exercises to loose the muscles and to learn the "fire now"-effect.
I repeat: There's no one rigth position for all! It's only one for each...
kindly
Roman
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-05-18 21:06
Paul wrote-
."I could not disagree with "skygardener" more!"
That's okay.  This is the statement that made me say that-.
>"I'm having trouble landing back on the 'C'. Curling the 5th finger for the 'C' key causes the >4th finger to curl too and miss the tone-hole. As far as I remember this is because these >two fingers share a tendon."
This happens because they are connected by tendons and nerves. Curling one's pinky at the first joint (the first one back from the tip of the finger) will involuntarily curve the ring finger. A few rare people have true independence.
Thus, he said his ring finger is curling, this is because his pinky is curling. He needs to straighten them both out to avoid the problem.
---
Also Paul said- "I don't see anything wrong with taking a position with the fingers perpendicular to the horn. This position necessitates the curved left pinky."
The perpendicular thing is not a problem, it is the amount of curve.
I came to this realization after years of "my own best position that I found for myself" (that didn't work) and watched the hands of some of the fastest players I could find. Most of them have straight-ish fingers with a slight curve and all the movement comes from the knuckle. Very few have an oboe-like curl. Oboists can do that because the key travel is very small, clarinet needs more lift.
After very little time, I could play much faster than I ever had before. I am just suggesting what works well for a lot of players with good finger technique.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-05-19 10:45
Yes skygardener, but this only your way ;-) As I said before - 100 players, 100 positions. Look in detail, you'll see this...!
kindly
Roman
PS: The "mechanical coupling" of fingers is a physical effect which can be trained well away in most cases. But it's not growing by itself until you sleep. You have to practise long long time...
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-05-19 11:18
Perhaps my verbal description is not good enough. Not seeing the OP's hands, we are only guessing as to what is really going on there.
Roman-
"PS: The "mechanical coupling" of fingers is a physical effect which can be trained well away in most cases."
You can use your time to "train away" the coupling in your hands if you want to. I don't have the time for that- I just use a hand position that avoids the problem altogether. Do all the movement from the knuckles and keep the fingers at a nice, slight, relaxed curve and everything will come easy. ... and for the situations that my pinkys don't reach the keys, I just make new keys!
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-05-19 12:15
;-) But it's not the mandatory best way for all.
As I begun to play the double bass, I wondered, how the players move their fingers. Some patched them stiff and tensioned to the neck, some hammered every note separately started from an open position. First I read in German boards: "Only the flat finger sounds well, all the other is bullshit. Basta!". Later I read more and more ... and figured out, that most of the best black musicians didn't play straight fingers.
I asked why, and the answer was simple - "we aren't German oldschoolers from overcoming from the middleage, we're black guys". Do you know, what I mean?!
I know many sax-doublers, playing tha flat finger-style - some of them with the 2nd finger element too! But I know the same number (or even more) who finger the other way - curved a.s.o. Both of them are well established musicians, in jazz and classical.
Could be the best method for you, never I will guess another reason. But for many others another method will be even good or better ;-)
kindly
Roman
PS: The training "investment" is worth because the pinky and ring finger alone come more flexible and independent. Your hint is a workaround for one problem only, but there's a lot of problems more with the pinky...
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Author: timg
Date: 2010-05-21 01:24
I'm following this discussion with great interest.
Robass, the penny exercise (and other similar routines) is good training, but moving the 5th finger isn't a problem for me.
Skygardener's comments are quite the opposite of what my teacher recommends, though I'm beginning to think hand-position isn't essential in this case. I think Ken is right in saying that the 4th and 5th fingers should move together, implying that the 5th finger should be near the C-key *before* the 4th finger lifts.
As soon as I can I'll fuel the debate with some pictures.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-05-21 11:51
No timg, I'm talking not about the 5th finger in move only - I'm talking bout a separated move of the 5th finger without the 4th's!
The problem mostly is a coupling effect by some hand borne limits. This limitations could be widened by the mentioned trainig method.
It's a sum of better concentration AND enlarged mechanical flexibility.
kindly
Roman
PS: But some "mutants" could not train away this small problem - due to medicinal indications.-) Then another method (workaround) must be used...
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The Clarinet Pages
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