 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan
Date: 2010-05-10 16:16
I joined an orchestra for beginning musician, and I am wondering, at what point, if ever, does one stop counting? I know the music, having play the pieces a few hundred times.
The person next to me, a flutist, says that he does not count, but he's a flutist.
I tried to not count, but for me it's much easier to stay on the beat when I count, and I know exactly where I am, when I rest, or come in.
And, if while counting, I make a mistake by playing the wrong note, I can recover on the next note, but if I stop counting and lose the rhythm, it take a while to find my place and start again. So, for me it's much worse to lose the rhythm than to play a wrong note.
Is it a option to count or not?
Dan
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2010-05-10 16:29
It depends on your definition of "count."
Any musician who plays with correct rhythm is "counting" in a fundamental sense of the word. Whether or not the musician is thinking "one-and-two-and" is not at issue.
Many musicians eventually do not think of the numbers/syllables, and instead just feel the correct subdivisions and rhythm. This ability takes time and patience. If you're playing correctly while "counting" then no problems!
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2010-05-10 16:37
For what it's worth, I would say that your approach sounds a lot more sensible than the flautist's!
Whether, as Katrina says above, you are actually counting in the arithmetical sense or feeling the pulse you should always count when you play a piece however many times you have played it before and however well you know it. Particularly in an ensemble situation, each performance/read through will be slightly different and you may need to adjust to suit it. Also, if you are not counting and some cue from another instrument doesn't happen for some reason (say the player makes a mistake or gets a fault with the instrument) your counting and staying on the ball may well save the whole thing from collapsing.
It sounds as though you are making a good start to ensemble playing though - welcome to the madcap world of clarinet!
Vanessa.
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2010-05-10 17:09
The short answer is, NEVER. Now, there's counting and there's counting--toe tapping, the inexorable conveyor belt drive of a metronome, as well as mental counting. In classical music, we have both key and time signatures, so we're primed (from the outset) to keep them in mind. Playing with just one other person requires coordination, so one must learn to work with that person in the context of the time signature. Too, a composer's instruction, like "rubato", affects your general rate of speed, but the instruction does not cancel the time signature. In 4/4 time, a quarter note still gets a beat, even if the speed of the piece varies.
Early in music education you learn not only to count the beats of a measure, but, also, to subdivide notes and rests. Counting helps you maintain the order of a piece and to finish the piece or a part of it at the same time everybody else does.
I've read more than once on this board that in sight reading at auditions, one should, at least, size up the time signature and play consistent with the time values of notes and rhythm of the piece, even if one misses some accidentals.
So, counting is part of music; but, then, it's part of life too.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-05-10 17:46
I've been playing clarinet since 1968, and I still count. As the music gets more complex, counting becomes even more essential. The difference is that you don't do it as consciously as you did as a beginner. it's like an "autopilot" program in your head.
Jeff
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-05-10 17:52
You always count.
But sometimes in really familiar musical patterns (e.g., four-bar phrases, twelve-bar blues) you find that you just 'know' where you are at all times even if your mind wanders for some reason and you lose count.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-05-10 18:30
Counting all of the time, even durning the rests, long or short rests, such as a 16th rest to 40 measures.
Within a short time it becomes automatic.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2010-05-11 03:29)
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Author: Dan
Date: 2010-05-10 18:49
As always, your information and help is great.
Thanks, Dan
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-05-10 19:57
There is a reason for the conductor. Learn to keep the conductor in your field of vision (even while reading the music -- he/she doesn't have to be in focus so long as you are seeing the motion of the baton). With practice, you will get to the point that the conductor will be visually counting for you. You don't need to actually count the numbers because they are designated by the position of the baton. Subdivisions of each beat will become a matter of feel to fit the basic tempo with knowing where the conductor is going to put the next beat. Long rests will most likely need to be counted. Just because your flutist friend is not thinking one-two-three-four, does not mean that he is not counting in some way. If every player is not, in some way, counting, things quickly become chaos.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-05-10 21:39
IMO it's not just an option. Counting is a tool that helps you play. As is listening for cues by others (especially after extended rests).
In a way, you should always know your relative position in the musical universe of a piece. You orient yourself with counting the grid lines on the map, and you look for the "third intersection after you drive past the yellow house".
Different players have different methods and preferences when it comes to orientation. Counting is one of them.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-05-10 22:35
Gee, I am in the clear minority. I find that I just follow the pulse. That is, the space of time of the beat "in-the-moment." If there are multiple bars rest, I am cautious enough to count that out, but where there are notes, I just remain "in-the-moment."
................Paul Aviles
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2010-05-11 02:54
@jjalbrecht:"As the music gets more complex, counting becomes even more essential."
Boy, howdy! Just got through a season with a wind ensemble which featured Eric Whitacre's "Equus," Dan Welcher's "Zion," and Kabalevsky's "Colas Breugnon." You don't count, you're DEAD.
Don't even THINK about not counting! Just count. The people across the room who are counting (no pun intended) on you getting your entrance so they can get theirs will be eternally grateful.
@BartHx: "There is a reason for the conductor. . . With practice, you will get to the point that the conductor will be visually counting for you. You don't need to actually count the numbers because they are designated by the position of the baton."
Yes, there is a reason for the conductor. But that reason is NOT to beat time for people who can't or won't do it for themselves. And the more advanced the ensemble, the less likely it will be that the conductor will be willing to adhere to academic stick patterns.
Bottom line: COUNT!!
Susan
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