 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rik
Date: 2010-04-26 16:11
Last Friday, I finaly bought a new clarinet to replace the Noblet Artist my mom bought for me 37 years ago.
I chose a Yamaha CSG, payed 2.600 € = 3.469 $ for it. This is a normal price for Europe. I could have purchased it cheaper via www, but buying without trying was out of question, and a shop that keeps a stock of 20 pro-clarinets which you can try as much as you like in my opinion deserves to earn some money in exchange for that service.
It’s a 18/6 with silver keys, as the Hamilton-keys version just wasn’t available within a range of 300 km.
I intended to buy a Selmer or Leblanc, it was the salesman that suggested the Yamaha. My first reaction (for which I feel deeply ashamed now) was “No thx, I’m looking for a wooden clarinet”. Then I played the CSG, and it was breathtaking! The sound, the feel, the easy-blowing, it was perfect for me!
I went back to the shop 3 times, and tried all available pro-Buffets + Selmer Arthea, Privélège and Recital + Leblanc Concerto II. Only the 2 last ones sounded as good as the CSG, and none of them played as comfortable. And they were more expensive.
I did my tryouts with my B45 mouthpiece, didn’t even bother trying the Yamaha mthp that was delivered with the instrument as the salesman told me Yamaha mouthpieces weren’t as good as my Vandoren. For this he proved wrong: when after 2 days I tried it just out of curiosity, it played even better, seems to fit marvelously with the instrument.
I’m playing it for the maximum of ½ hr a day now, and it gets better every day. Can’t wait for the two first weeks to be over!
Gent, Belgium
Post Edited (2010-08-15 20:28)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-26 16:30
Welcome to the club!!!
As you say, there are other horns that are certainly close, but far more expensive.
My CSGs have stood up amongst all oncomers and I still continue to try and find one better (in my spare time that is).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-04-26 17:45
Hi guys,
I'm very interested in this subject. A couple months ago I went to the Yamaha Atelier in NYC and tried out about 7 Yamaha CSGs, and was really blown away by them, in many ways. However I felt it difficult to really judge them sonically (sadly I went on my own) since the level of vibrations going on was SO HIGH.
Honestly, the whole thing vibrated in my hands, and is so light, and the response was so easy, that in some ways it felt like a toy to me.
I believe that it had a dark, round sound, but i just didn't know exactly what I was hearing. One thing I can say, is that when I went back to my Buffet (same reed/mouthpiece) it felt really stuffy, which is normally doesn't feel like at all. So, do you two notice this too? How do you find the general tone?
Second, strangely enough, and I can't explain it, there was a HUGELY noticeable difference between those with Hamilton and Silver plating. It was really bizarre to me, and I would never believe it otherwise, but I felt the Hamilton had MUCH better response and a freer sound. The silver plating was somehow more like my buffets. Do you notice this too?
My last question, which was really worrying to me, and almost a deal breaker. I found the scale amazing on all the instruments, except for the throat Bb. The Bb was SOOOOOOOO flat, 25 or 30 cents, and unbelievably fuzzy (more than any instrument I think I've ever tried) on every single instrument that showed me. If that is inherent with all the instruments, then I don't think I could use it, but it seemed really strange to me.
Have you two found this problem?
Anyway, I'm really tempted by these instruments. I would need a longer trial period, but I'm seriously considering buying one/a pair
I would love to hear more about your experiences with them.
bye
Sacha
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-26 19:02
Dear Sacha,
Gee that's a lot to chew on. My experience was not quite the same so it is difficult if not impossible to respond directly to your post.
Firsly, I HIGHLY recommend trying out a new horn WITH the one you are currently playing. Start out your trial session WITH YOUR CURRENT HORN. It is imperative to have a "standard" to which to compare. Every accoustical environment will be so different (not to mention your physical condition and emotional state at the moment). Without your horn, first, it's like trying to remember the color of your wallpaper when trying to match swatches at the store.
The first thing I do is just play dittys for fun. If the clarinet in question passes the "fun" test, then I proceed to details such as evenness of sound, good response, altissimo register and finally what things look like against a tuner (I do not have perfect pitch).
In the initial trial I had of the CSG vs my Buffet R13, it was very clear that the internal intonation was much more improved on the Yamaha. The sound was equally as strong and the sound itself was very rich on the CSG. The sound was most impressive to me since the reason most of us put up with much of the R13 nonsense is that the richness of the sound and capacity to play loudly and controlled is hard to match. Since the CSG matched all the important qualities (if not doing a bit better) and was so much better in tune, I sold my R13 on the spot and bought the Yamaha.
I sought out the Hamilton Plate particularly since I have a problem with high acidity in my system that eats through silver and nickel plated keys. Hence, I did not try the silver plated CSG and do not have that as a point of comparison. I believe that all CSG are identical save for the plating, and even though the Yamaha literature claims some impact on sound between the two I remain doubtful until I have the chance to try a silver for myself.
As for the throat Bb, I have not had that experience. No real difference there for me from the R13 at all, neither better or worse in response, though perhaps there may have been some key height adjustment on the horns that you looked at that made the openings too small.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2010-04-27 12:18
Full disclosure - I am a Yamaha Performing Artist. I have played Yamaha clarinets professionally since 1985, including during my tenure as Principal Clarinet of the Richmond Symphony Orchestra.
I bought a CSG (Hamilton plating) in October, and I've been very happy with it.
A few points:
1.) as Paul suggested, start your trial from familiar territory - bring your current clarinet.
2.) Interesting - I tried about a dozen clarinets at the Yamaha Atelier in NYC - silver keys and Hamilton plated. I did this because I wanted to put to rest the Yamaha web site BS stating that the Hamilton plating give those clarinets a warmer, darker sound (or whatever they claim!) During my trial EVERY Hamilton plated CSG played better than the best silver plated CSG. Of course, YMMV, etc., etc. I'm guessing that there is something else about the Hamilton plated clarinets that Yamaha isn't disclosing. Just a guess.
I've gotten some flak from professional friends about the appearance of the Hamilton plated keys. NONE about the way the clarinet plays!
3.) re: throat Bb - with the stock 56 mm barrel, throat tones on my CSG (and most of the ones I tried) were right on the money @ 440 with my Grabner K11 mouthpiece. The CSG comes with a 54 mm barrel, but I don't like mine as much. Still, if you find a 54 mm barrel, that should solve your problem. Also, I understand that there are now after-market barrels for the CSG. So the Bb shouldn't be a deal killer.
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
Post Edited (2010-04-27 12:18)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-27 20:12
Dear David,
Thanks for the mention of the barrels !!!!
Many talk of stuffiness when the real issue is flatness. I IMMEDIATELY ordered the 54mm (or is it 53.5?) barrels for the my pair and also obtained a marvelous custom 54mm "fat-boy" from Dr. Segal.
MUST MUST use the shortest option barrel for the CSGs !!!!!
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-04-27 22:13
Hi guys,
thanks for writing.
Of course I know to bring and compare my current clarinet, and I always start trying out new equipment (even new brand of reeds) with a proper warm up on my normal set up, so I know I am in good playing order, and I know what I am used to.
When I went, I did this, of course.
About the Bb, what I experienced, I don't think could be fixed by a barrel. Only the Bb was strange (nothing from the A or Ab). It wasn't just incredibly flat, but sounded like it was from another instrument, SUPER stuffy and just strange sounding. I have never experienced a Bb that even came close to this, and all the instruments were like this in the shop. I can't imagine it's my mouthpiece, as it's worked perfectly on every clarinet I've tried with it (Buffets, Rossi, and Schwenk&Seggelke) and I've never had a particular Bb problem. . .
I personally like the way the Hamilton looks, and I'm still confounded about the response with it over the Silver plating. From what I could hear, at least.
One thing that neither of you really touched on fully is the thing I am most interested about. This feeling of Vibration through the whole instrument, which also led me to not feel able to judge the sound quality. Do you find this true with the vibrations? How could you describe the sound quality? Also, is the sound flexible? I don't have any first hand knowledge about the clarinets, but colleagues of mine have told me that Yamaha Bassoons (for instance) tend to sound great, but not be very flexible.
Lastly, I would imagine if the whole instrument is vibrating, that it projects very well. Would you say it is also good for chamber music, when it needs to blend, and maybe not project so well?
Thanks for taking the time to write. It's really helpful to read about it from people who use them, since trying them out is not as easy as popping down to the local music shop.
Also, do you know if there are any recordings (pro or not) of someone playing on a CSG? I would love to hear something
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Author: CEC
Date: 2010-04-28 00:18
Bil Jackson plays a CSG. Should be some sound clips of him online somewhere.
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Author: Benjamin
Date: 2010-04-28 13:17
I would guess the super flat throat Bb was from a bunch of cotton or other debris caught in the register vent and/or the register key pad being setup too low; a very good reason to stick with silk swabs over the cheap and linty cotton ones. Did you try adjusting the key height or taking the key off to clean the register tube (a clean/dry mascara brush works great for this)?
Also, how was the Bb with the 3rd side key compared to the standard fingering? That would be disconcerting if they were almost a quarter tone apart!
I know Joaquin Valdepenas has been using the CSG for a number of years and sounding beautiful with them. I also met Justin O'Dell (Michigan State prof.) about a year ago, who let me try his set. I thought the instruments were great and I wish I had more time to try them! His clarinets had a custom low F resonance vent, like the Selmer Recitals.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-28 14:40
I second the notion that there MUST have been some obstruction to the Bbs to make them seem so unusual. Of course doing on the spot repairs to a new horn in the store may be out of the question. But the store tech may be engaged to have a look.
The vibration thing is an odd question. I have ALWAYS produced copious amounts of vibrations (mainly in the chalameau of course) in any horn I play. I do not really experience a significant difference in the Yamahas vs Buffets or Leblancs so I cannot address this directly.
However, if vibrations equate to good projection, this is what you want IN ALL SETTINGS. It is up to your musicianship to temper your volume and style to the particular setting you are in. The last thing you would want, is an instrument that limits you in some way and does not allow one thing or another. You want an instrument that DOES IT ALL well and allows YOU to choose how you want it to sound at the moment.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: gwie
Date: 2010-04-29 16:04
No issues on this end...I have a silver Bb and a hamilton A (so I can tell the two apart hahaha). I found myself doing a lot of work to match pitch in ensembles when I played my R-13's and the CSG was a dream come true.
Now what I want is that awesome vent key that Justin has on his A clarinet. Apparently he drew out the design for it and the specialist at Yamaha made it happen. 
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-30 12:47
I still wish someone would just make a bell vent triggered by a right thumb key as the Wurlitzer Oehlers have. This vents BOTH the low F and low E.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: lllebret
Date: 2010-04-30 13:24
I had the same problem with stuffy, flat throat b flats on a friends CSG until he told me that the standard resonance fingerings that I use on my R 13 caused the problem - he used different resonance fingerings (and the pitch and tone were good with his fingering which I don't remember. ) One of the fingers I use for b flat (2nd of left hand?, maybe something on the right) causes the problem and if you have a CSG in hand its easy enough to figure out - just play b flat and add fingers - one of the added fingers will really mess up the sound and pitch. I found the CSG I tried quite remarkable - I'm not ready to switch because I've got me set-up pretty much dialed in but if I was the CSG would be on my short list, especially for the price.
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Author: klarinetkid
Date: 2010-04-30 18:52
I've been playing a set of CSG clarinets in my orchestra (after about 13 years of playing Buffets) and for me, they've really been fantastic horns. My two cents:
1. I think the key plating talk is interesting. When my repairman Tim Clark used to stock Buffet clarinets (a lot of them) I would try a lot of clarinets, silver and nickel plated. The silver plated keys always seemed a bit deader in sound to me as opposed to the nickel plated keys, but this could be my imagination. I always went with silver plated keys simply because I would wear away nickel plating really quickly and the silver always seemed to hold up a little better. I personally preferred the sound of the Hamilton plated horns, although I don't know if I was listening with my ears or with my eyes...
2. I've tried a wide variety of barrels from Tomoji Hirakata. I tend to prefer the opposite of most CSG players (including Paul). These clarinets do play lower in pitch, but I actually use 57.5 mm barrels on both my Bb and A (1 mm longer than the standard barrel). This puts me within reach of A440 (I play with an oboe player who is pretty insistent on this...) and I haven't looked back. I do notice that my throat Bb dips a bit, but not nearly as much as what you've described. It might actually be worth it to try some different mouthpieces on the CSG to see if you notice any improvement. My last Bb, an R13 Vintage actually had a sharp throat Bb- sometimes you just can't win...
3. Although these clarinets come with an excellent setup out of the box, I still went through my normal routine of having it set up by my repairman (cork pads in the upper joint, tuning, balancing key action, etc...). A good repairman can work on the voicing and pitch of the throat tones with you and hopefully get it right for you (or at least within striking distance).
4. Flexibility. One of my favorite things about the CSG is that it has a tremendous amount of hold without sacrificing response. That is, I can make quite a racket at the beginning of the solo in the overture to Der Freischutz without having to work overly hard to keep the sound from becoming shrill or spread but I can also play pppp with a great amount of ease (given a good reed of course). Personally, I've found I have great flexibility with dynamics, but not as much flexibility in color as with my old R13s. On the other hand, I don't think my last R13 (while an excellent instrument) had nearly the amount of hold or ease of intonation, blend and projection that my CSG has. You can't get something for nothing, but in listening to recordings of both chamber music and orchestral performances, I very much prefer my sound on the CSG- I only wish I'd had them 15 years ago!
Just my impressions, YMMV, as they say!
Good luck!
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Author: Rik
Date: 2010-08-11 05:22
Hallelujah! I finally received the 53,8 & 54,8 mm barrels for my beloved CSG this weekend. It’s been some trouble getting them, but it was worth it: with the 54,8 mm I play an exact 440, with the 53,8 I’m on 442+, which is what I need to play with my orchestra. Couldn’t be happier!
What came before: 3 months ago, I bought my CSG with 2 barrels included: a 55,8 and a 57,3 mm. As the shortest one turned out to give a perfect 438, I called my instrument shop (Adams, Diest, Belgium) to order a shorter barrel. They gave me a price of 200 € (270 $): 180 € for the barrel, 20 € for adjusting it to the 54 mm I wished. Asking why it was so expensive, I got the answer that the short CSG-barrels don’t fit other clarinets, so they were only made on special order in very small quantities. This seemed plausible, so I ordered one without looking any further. But …
About one month later, while surfing a little around and googling “Yamaha csg barrel”, I found them on wwbw for only 85 $, or 3 times less !!!!! The only trouble: “no shipping outside the U.S. of A”.
No problem: I canceled The Golden Barrel (which was no problem because Yamaha Europe didn’t even bother to confirm the order to the shop yet), and ordered both sizes on wwbw, asking for delivery to a U.S. friend’s address. He finally brought them to Europe this weekend after 2 long months of endless waiting.
I guess I’ve been breaking some import/export rules doing this, and Yamaha Europe won’t be really happy with it, but I don’t care: no taxation or currency difference can explain a triple price.
It looks as if Yamaha Europe isn’t interested in selling it’s woodwind products in Europe, I see no other explanation why the CSG is so rarely available over here, why it’s only sold in the American 438 tuning and why at such prices.
But that doesn’t matter any more. You know what? I’m happy.
Gent, Belgium
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-08-11 19:22
Dear Eric,
Precisely.
The same mechanism (VERY simple key........very much like the Left hand alternate F/C only for the thumb) as featured on their Oehler system.
I have wondered since '84 why NO ONE else has tried this on a Boehm clarinet especially in light of the half-assed attempt on the Buffet Tosca.
...........Paul Aviles
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-08-11 20:01
I've been reading various reports about the CSGs on this board over the past year, and got more and more intrigued. It seemed that comments were universally glowing, so I decided I simply had to try these machines out: from all the praise, it seemed this was going to be the door to a world of a new and better sound. So I went to Howarths in London and spent an hour or so playing two of them (which were indistinguishable).
My conclusion was that I found it very difficult to reconcile what I was holding in my hands with all the reports on this board. I found the sound small, thin, and largely devoid of body or warmth. I suppose in a sense they did make a German sound, but of the old school players such as Herbert Stahr, rather than modern German players who typically have a rounder sound. I normally use early-1980s R13's, and playing the CSGs just left me appreciating how good R13's are, and wondering how I could have been anything less than 100% happy with them.
This is all completely personal and subjective. But I thought I should record that CSG's don't come close to R13's as far as I'm concerned. Can I really be the only one in the world who feels this way, or is it just that it's only the players who like CSGs who are motivated to write about them?
And yes, these were silver plated. I would need some convincing (e.g. in the form of blind trials where different keys are applied to the same wood) that the form of plating makes any difference to the sound.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-08-11 20:47
Paul,
I agree. When looking at the last sixty years of clarinetistry in America, it's strange that what are actually incomplete Boehm systems were marketed for so long as 'top of the line' 'professional' models.
Why leave off the opposing Eb key (when standard repertoire demands it)? Why not improve the throat Bb (when everyone, including the audience, knows it's a problem)? Why not a low E/F improvement? Cheap shortcuts.
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-08-12 19:06
Dear Mr. Peacock,
I would like to clarify that I also play several different Buffet R13s regularly. I have recently just had an R13 Greenline completely redone in Omni pads and feared that my revered CSG may take a temporary back seat to the phenomonal characteristics of the overhauled horn.
Much to my surprise (even though I have some fairly worn out pads on the CSG) the CSG still plays remarkably close to the Buffet in depth, timbre and VOLUME (an important discriminator for me).
Unfortunately for the R13, it still apparently has questionable tuning characteristics which are far better addressed on the CSG.
Since you did NOT mention the internal tuning characteristics of either your horn or your trial CSG I must assume that your R13 is one of the RARE beasts that plays reasonably well in tune. My main beef all along with Buffet is their abililty to crank out vast amount of clarinets that need a great deal of work on their twelfths or just need to be recycled.
For me, the Yamahas are much more consistant on this score and for the average human being that does not have the time or resources to plow through 30 clarinets to find one decent one, Yamaha provides much greater constancy and a sound that is comparable by any one's unbiased estimation.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-08-13 10:11
Dear Paul,
I assumed that people who like CSGs will generally have made that choice deliberately in preference to an R13, and didn't have the slightest intention of implying that this was an uninformed or incorrect choice. I just wanted to record that the preference ends up the other way around for me, and I was curious if others might have had the same experience, but not written about it.
As for tuning on the CSG, this seemed OK - but I didn't pay much attention to it, because the basic sound just wasn't right. Interesting you praised the volume, because I felt the opposite: no hint that I could get it to sing out in a big orchestral solo.
I don't know if my Buffets are unusual, but they do date from pre-prestige days, and certainly whenever I try out new Buffet models, they don't sound as good. As for tuning, nothing is perfect: the question is whether the machine is such that the adjustments you have to make are small enough not to get in the way of the playing - and I find Buffet pretty good in this regard (as good as perfect compared to Boosey & Hawkes, for sure).
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Author: The_Clarinetist
Date: 2012-03-31 19:30
To Paul A;
I am thinking of getting a pair of CSGs and have looked into the market of special barrels as the barrel is a bit shorter on these german inspired clarinets. I search for a darker sound and was wondering if you by "marvelous custom 54mm "fat-boy" from Dr. Segal" mean that they are absolutely perfect in every aspect and a bit darker in sound as well?
Bye the way, how much did you pay?
Post Edited (2012-03-31 19:40)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2012-03-31 23:27
Well I must say that the ringless (or perhaps better said, non-metal ring) barrel is conducive to a slightly more 'woody' sound, or vibrant sound. It might also be thought of as 'dark' but whatever is, I prefer it to the barrels with metal rings.
I subsequently tried a couple of the original Backun designed barrels on an R13 Greenline and had a very similar improvement to the sound.
The difference is not earth shattering, and yet I cannot imagine playing on the standard barrels for any length of time.
The barrel I got was on e-bay for about $110 dollars (an extra made for a clarinetist in the Netherlands who didn't wind up needing it). Though I would have happily payed more, I needed to wait for no one to bid on it before Dr. Segal would sell it to me (I refuse to even learn how to do the auction thing) because there is an e-bay rule about such things.
Wonderful barrel.......worth the wait. But you can just order direct from Dr. Segal.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Johan H Nilsson
Date: 2016-05-05 12:25
Maintenance question: Is the register tube threaded on the CSG and other Yamaha professional clarinets?
If threaded, what kind of tool can be used to remove it?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2016-05-05 22:58
It "looks" typical to me, but there are some things that I don't do to clarinets, and that's one of them.
I'd ask Chris P. directly (he posts to this board all the time and is in on the "Forked F#" post).
............Paul Aviles
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