 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-04-25 09:43
I have three clarinets, the latest being the the Yamaha CSG (at US$3500). All are hopelessly flat, for me, in the lower register. By flat I`m talking 1/2 a semi tone. Of course it could be my reed is too soft, 5yrs playing is not enough, my embouchure is up to..well not very good, I`m too old and ..so on.
My point is tho` why can`t clarinets be made with more adjustable latitude? Too sharp? No problem just pull out the barrel, but too flat and you are in trouble. You either spend more money to get a shorter barrel or you switch on the grind stone. Why can`t a clarinet on setting up have a barrel, or some part as standard that could be adjusted (say +or-4mm) out or IN depending on the players needs?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-04-25 10:27
Many dual-market (A=440/442Hz) clarinets come with two barrels. When I buy an American clarinet (eg a Bundy or a Vito), I have to shorten the barrel by 1.5mm in order to bring it up to A=442. But other than that, I never noticed any particular flatness in the chalumeau, except from maybe the lowermost tone (E), but that's a notorious one.
I know that the mouthpiece can have a huge influence in the overall tuning of a clarinet. Not all mouthpieces work well with all reeds, players and instruments. What are you using? Same for all your instruments?
--
Ben
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Author: xarkon
Date: 2010-04-25 15:58
And in addition to what Ben posted, what mouthpiece are you using? One not suited to the instrument can cause the instrument to be flat. For example, any Vandoren 13-series mouthpiece do not work on my Selmer Signatures.
Dave
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-04-25 16:01
If your clarinet is actually a half a semi tone flat in the lower register and not that flat in the 12ths above you probably shouldn't have bought the clarinet in the first place because there's a problem with it. If it's not the fault of the clarinet then it's either your mouthpiece or it's you. Have someone else, preferably a professional, try it and give you their opinion. It the clarinets were built in octaves instead of 12th it would make it much easier to tune in that respect.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2010-04-25 19:03
He said he has 3 clarinets, and all 3 are flat.
Which indicates a technique or embouchure issue most likely.
Or possibly you need a different mouthpiece and/or strength of reed.
I'd suggest a few lessons with a good private teacher to help you get it figured out.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-04-25 21:22
What kind of mouthpiece are you using?
Also, when you check pitch with a tuner, does the tuner really point to the "-50 cents" area?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-04-25 22:39
Five years should be plenty of time to develop the ability to play in tune, assuming you have had proper instruction. If you are that out of tune on three different instruments from three different makers, the problem most likely resides elsewhere. As mentioned abovem, it might be a technical problem with the mouthpiece or reed not being suited to the rest of your instrument, but that much of a problem, when it occurs on three different instruments, more likely points to a problem you are having with your playing technique.
To rule out equipment problems, get the instruments to a competent repair technician first. Once you are sure they are in proper playing order and do not exhibit the intonation issues you mentioned, start working with a good teacher. It may be your mouthpiece/reed setup, or it could be a n issue with your playing.
Jeff
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-04-26 06:02
Thank you but I think you are missing my point gentlemen. I`m saying that if I take the clarinets AND the mouthpieces supplied with them there should be a mechanism for adjustment built in that will compensate, to a degree, for players ability.
You are all saying "I may need a new MPC, or a different reed or get more tuition on embouchure" Well actually I`ve done this and the problem is a lot less now for the outlay of about $500. But not everyone can afford to do this. If you buy a new car there are many adjustments, steering wheel up or down, ditto seat etc. to accomodate your shape. I`m not convinced the same couldn`t apply to clarinets.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-04-26 06:23
Yes, but even the car with all its adjustable seats, wheels and so requires you to have a valid permit which in turn requires some driving lessons.
If you can't reverse park, not even the most adjustable seat will help you there.
I wish instrument makers would come up with a mind-reading instrument, one that plays the note I intended, not the one I mistakenly fingered. ;-)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2010-04-26 06:24)
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-04-26 13:09
Rusty, I think you are asking the manufacturers to compensate for whatever shortcomings you have as a player. Since the average person purchasing a Yamaha CSG has already worked out most of these issues, it would add extra cost, weight and complexity to each and every instrument manufactured, when most people do not experience the issues you have described and therefore, would not need the extra hassle and expense involved.
Jeff.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-04-26 13:55
"Well actually I`ve done this and the problem is a lot less now for the outlay of about $500. But not everyone can afford to do this."
Stuff costs money. It is a sad truth, but stuff just costs money. The fact is that arts have and always will be the product of financial excess. It has been that way since people had enough extra berries that they could waste them to make pictures on the wall without going hungry.
"If you buy a new car there are many adjustments, steering wheel up or down, ditto seat etc. to accomodate your shape. I`m not convinced the same couldn`t apply to clarinets."
If you buy a clarinet that costs as much as a car, I am sure you will find these issues taken care of and there will little aftermarket purchases, maybe none at all.
Personally, I believe that you might be reading your tuner improperly. I think that the lower register of your clarinet might be about 20~25 cents flat, not 50. I also think that it is not on all the notes as consistently as you describe.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-04-26 13:58
The instrument is designed to play in tune within a much smaller range of adjustment than you're suggesting. So long as we're talking about acoustical instruments (not MIDI or other synthesized sound generators), adding + or - 4 mm would so distort the intonation of the instrument as to make it unusable. Wherever you add the length, the effect would be fairly local. A barrel change of even a millimeter or two won't move the long fingerings nearly as much as the throat notes. Using a 70 mm barrel on an instrument designed to play for a skilled player at A440 (or A442) with a 66 mm barrel will not only have a disastrous result on the scale, but it will also significantly change the response and tone quality of the whole instrument. Wherever you add any length, the change in pitch will only be effective below that point and will be greater closer to the point where the length is added.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-04-26 15:35
Rusty, first of all there is a reason very few players, especially professionals, never use the mouthpiece that comes with the clarinet because they are often not very good, go figure. A good Vandoren mouthpiece costs a lot less then $500, as a matter of fact they're less than $100. I didn't catch the fact that all of your clarinets play flat at first, I thought it was just your newest, my mistake. The problem is either your mouthpiece or the way you voice when you play. There simply is no way for a clarinet manufacture to do what you are asking them to do. Don't you think if someone can make a perfect instrument, or have an adjustment screw or something to alter the pitch of an entire register without effecting the rest of the instrumet, that they would do it. That's what the companies are trying to do in order to compete. As I said, the clarinet is built on 12ths, you fix a lower note it will also effect the upper 12th, usually in the opposite direction. You need to take some lessons from a professional. ESP
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-26 16:25
Kdk has an excellent point about the affects of internal pitch versus a solution such as a (God forgive me the reference) "Click Barrel." The problem as Kdk suggests is that every distance between each hole would have to be different to compensate properly. Just look (really LOOK) at an A clarinet. This horn plays only one half step lower than its Bb cousin and yet adds all that length from top to bottom and quite a bit between all the rest of the tone holes as well.
The easiest adjustment is to start "high" and work to play lower. Being on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, your problem will need some serious intervention.
The clarinet of which you speak sounds more like a theoretical UNIBODY, being all one piece from bell through the tip of the built in mouthpiece. Yes, THIS clarinet would be TOO inflexible and would NOT sell in a car showroom.
But modern clarinets have separate barrel, which in addition to your embouchure should give you all the latitude you need....... AS LONG AS YOU HAVEN'T PURCHASED AN AMERICAN PITCH STANDARD HORN FOR USE IN GERMANY !!!!!
And finally, if you are a tenor sax player learning to double clarinet or you are studying with a tenor saxophone player, you need to leave that thought process behind and get a clarinet teacher.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: tedm
Date: 2010-04-26 18:17
We have 2 Artley 17S clarinets (one bought on Craigslist and used by the owner for many years), 2nd on ebay. First one we wasted $50 for a tune-up, about the price of the like new ebay one.
Both are about 1/2 step flat, in fact when I play guitar or keyboards with them, I tune down 1/2 step.
Weird thing, is they play in band, and are seemingly in tune with everyone else.
Perhaps it gets warmer during band practice or something?
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-04-26 18:59
At the risk of stating the obvious - you know that a clarinet is supposed to play 1 whole tone flat as it is a transposing instrument. (C on clarinet == Bb on Piano/Guitar).
Sorry if that's clear for everyone in this thread; I just thought I should mention it...
--
Ben
Post Edited (2010-04-26 19:00)
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Author: tedm
Date: 2010-04-26 19:09
Yes, I get that Ben. Now if someone could tell Artley that, then I could just tune my guitar down 1 full step and be in tune, instead of 1.5 steps down.
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-04-26 19:12
So...the Buffet doesn't have this problem then, right?
Are the Artleys uniformly 1.5 steps flat compared to your Guitar?
<scratches head>
--
Ben
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Author: tedm
Date: 2010-04-26 20:39
I'll test the Buffet tonight.
The Artley's are about 1/2 step flat. I keep one guitar tuned 1 step flat, and have to detune it further to play in tune with them.
I'll use a synth generated tone, and two chromatic tuners to tell you how many cents they are off, and I'll use the best player of the three of us, but no tweaks with pulling the mouthpiece up, and note temp.
OK?
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-04-26 20:54
Ted, check the readout on the tuner. Play the C on a clarinet ![[C5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c5.gif) and then see what note the tuner says yoiu are playing. If the tuner shows you playing a Bb, then all is as it should be.
Jeff
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-04-26 21:42
Ed where I come from my Vandoran cost nearly twice the $100 and the rest of the money was in tuition.
But just to clarify a point are you all saying you never pull the barrel out a fraction to flatten the note a bit, because if you are why can`t the clarinet be made so that you can push it in the same amount to compensate. Of course my reference to +,- 4mm was extreme. -2 would do me.
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Author: tedm
Date: 2010-04-27 05:09
OK, here are the results of testing one Artley, and the Buffet B12:
Tuner: Korg chromatic, CA-20, temp 68 deg F, RH 45%
Artley #1 17S, Yamaha 4C mouthpiece, with new Rico Royal 2.5 reed.
Results: 50 cents flat at 440Hz with C note played (Bb on tuner).
Needle close to centered when tuner set for 435Hz reference.
Buffet B12: stock mouthpiece, Rico #3 reed, -10 cents at 440Hz, OK at ref 438Hz.
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-04-27 06:18
tedm wrote:
> Results: 50 cents flat at 440Hz with C note played (Bb on
> tuner). Needle close to centered when tuner set for 435Hz reference.
The difference between 435 and 440Hz is ~20 cents. If it were 50 cents flat, it'd be tuned for A=428Hz. I can't imagine that Artley produced a thusly out-of-whack instrument.
--
Ben
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-27 11:01
Dear Rusty,
YES !!!!! Your last post is exactlly right. Now just start sharp and pull out your barrel to compensate.
If I could just get on my "dark sounding mouthpiece" soap box just ONE MORE TIME. This is why I hate the latest trend in flat mouthpieces. It's one thing to have students play all sorts of sharp, but if the approach is from beneath pitch THERE IS NOTHING but biting and poor technique and more frustration to follow.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-04-27 21:02
Fine Paul but how do you but how do you start "start sharp" when my clarinets (and me) are all flat?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-04-27 21:15
There's no getting around it.
Step 1: Have someone else, preferrable someone rahter expert, check your instrument to see if it is, indeed, flat.
Step2: If it is not a problem with the instrument, seek the advice of a good teacher, because the problem will not otherwise go away, regardless of how much money/new gear you throw at it. Some folks will consider that last sentence to be blasphemy, but it's one of the undeniable truths of life.
Jeff
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Author: tedm
Date: 2010-04-27 21:46
Hi Jeff,
Trust me, this Artley is flat. I'll test the other one soon, but the other one, and the Buffett are the ones being used by the kids, this one where the kids can use with me on guitar where I can to to them.
I have no doubt that an "experienced" teacher could play this in tune by doing something trickly with one of the dozens of little levers on that instrument and implying it is user error, but hey, they need to make a living too
2 Artley 17S & 1 Buffet B12 Crampon
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-04-28 01:03
Ted, there are two parralel lines of inquiry going on, here: you and Rusty. I was addressing Rusty's issue more than yours. Seriously, though, you should take the Artley to a shop and have it checked out. MAybe there is an iissue that they can address.
One flaw that I see to your testing is that you have used two different mouthpieces to test the two clarinets, so we can't rule out mouthpiece issues with the Artley. Play all the clarinets using the same reed and mouthpiece to standard as much as possible, then go from those observations.
As many on this board have commented, stock Buffet mouthpieces could readily be converted to doorstops with great success and little change in their musicality. You may want to consider a decent, but inexpensive, student mouthpiece, like those so often mentioned: Fobes Debut; Behn Overture; Hite Premiere or Redwine Mezzo.
Jeff
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