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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-04-20 20:35
Hi everyone,
I just thought I would share some of my insights on the new legere signatures that I bought.
I have never really used a synthetic reed before, except for a little time about 6 years ago on the original legeres. So I don't really have anything other than cane to compare it with. I've now had these reeds for over a month, and I think I have a fairly good idea what they bring (or don't bring) to my playing.
When I first slapped it on my mouthpiece, I was pleasantly surprised with how it sounded. I had a memory, and maybe a preconception, that plastic reeds sound somehow stiff, and flat. I could immediately produce a nice, round, full sound from this reed (I have a 4.0 and 4 1/4, but the 4.0 is too soft for me) I found things like starting notes smoothly very easy. The sound is very different from the sound I make on my cane reeds (Rico Reserve Classic 4.0) but not particularly in a bad way. It's a little more homogeneous, and almost rounder. It has a different kind of sound, which somehow doesn't quite sound like a clarinet, for me. It's almost too clear, and I miss the little bit of reedy sound.
After the initial shock of it sounding good, I started to run into problems. I noticed that I had to quite heavily edit my style of playing to make the reed work.
For one, the legere requires a much more constant level of support than my cane reeds. Coming from a concept of playing, where I vary my support for musical, sound, and color reasons, I wasn't used to having to provide a full support all the time, and I found myself becoming a lot more tired. Any time I didn't give the right amount of support, rather than thinning the sound a little, the reed just stopped vibrating, and it felt like a constant battle to keep the reed making sound.
Also tiring, I found that any little change in embouchure gave me a huge variance in pitch. Things that would just change the tone color for me on cane, would sometimes drop the pitch a quarter tone on the legere. This means that I have to keep my embouchure much more rigid, which is not only tiring, but seemed to give me a many less options in my sound.
One test I do with my cane reeds, to see if they are flexible enough for me, is see how much I naturally want to add vibrato. I normally play with no vibrato, but as soon as I feel the reed wont give me the colors I want, I naturally compensate by adding a little vibrato to keep the sound moving. With the legere I find myself vibrating all over the place. . .funny for me.
Has anyone else found these things with Legeres? or other plastic reeds? Is it a problem for anyone else? I miss a lot of flexibility.
On further inspection, I found that I can play really nicely in the quiet volumes. Maybe even an easier pppp than with even my good cane reeds, but the loud volumes didn't hold the sound so well, and became quite harsh. Also, the lowest register of the instrument (mainly just F and E) sounded strangely hollow, but completely different from cane reeds, and completely different from what I would expect from the other notes with the legere.
I will be sticking to cane reeds at the moment, but I will definitely keep this in my case for emergencies. I'm amazed at how good it sounds at all, but it doesn't give me the flexibility that I need. I'm surprise that I haven't read anything from other people about these pitch problems that I have with them.
I look forward to trying Forestone, and keep my search for the ultimate reed!
Just my thoughts on this product!
Sacha
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Author: William
Date: 2010-04-20 21:04
I much prefer the Forestone reeds--particularily, the newest models--to anything Legere has produced, primarily because the sound they produce is very much like cane. For me, Forestone reeds--part bamboo fibre--sing like the best of cane while Legere sings like the plastic it is. I'll be very interested to hear you critique of F's after you've tried a couple. The Signitures that I recently tried were quite dismal on my Chicago Kaspar #14 mpc.
BTW--if you play sax, be sure to try the new Forestone sax reeds just introduced. I predict that they will be in most players cases once they become better known. IMHO, they are fantastic--and I just started using them full time on my Selmers (BA alto, "Hollywood" Gregory mpc & Mark VI tenor, "Studio" Guardala metal mpc)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-20 23:06
There have been a few postings (by me and several others) about pitch being generally lower. Some have this under a pros category, while others have it under con (as I do).
I agree with you that the sound beyond moderately forte is undesirable and where the reed "shows its true colors".
At the end of the day, they are not acceptable to me. As I've stated previously, when you switch to these permanently, after a few months there is a significant difference in the players concept of sound and reed selection changes.
Most of the time, when players change to them, they can no longer play cane reeds (good can reeds even). Something about that doesn't sit well with me.
To each their own, I suppose.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-04-20 23:19
I play Legere German cut reeds on a George Pieterson model Zinner, and they work beautifully.
Before switching over to Fritz Wurltizer Reform-Boehms, I played regular Legeres on a Richard Hawkins mouthpiece (on Buffets and Selmers), and those were great too.
I've found over the years that there are three types of players when it comes to Legeres: (a) those who just don't like them; (b) those who use them for practicing and emergencies, but can't get them to sound like cane; and (c) those who think Legeres sound and feel better than cane ever has and ever will. I'm in category (c). Though maybe there's a new category: (d) those who use Forestones and simply must use their Forestone experience as a stick to beat Legeres.
Shortly after they first came out, I remember a friend of mine and I talking about them. He was in group (b) when I told him I'd never use cane again. He seemed dubious, until I played for him. Then he simply said "I can't get them to sound like that. If I could, I'd switch over completely too."
I think it has to do with the individual player, not with the quality of Legeres, as to whether they are good or not: they are absolutely fantastic for the right players.
My experience of Legeres is that they are superior to cane in EVERY way--tone, control, intonation, pppp, fffff, you name it, I prefer Legere. But no one can tell you what works best for you--the only person whose opinion counts on that score is you.
[I don't represent Legere at all, by the way; just my experience. But if they want to email me and offer me free Legeres to be their spokesperson, I'LL GLADLY ACCEPT!]
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2010-04-20 23:21
I have similar experiences as NBeaty.
Pitch is a little flatter and tone quality at forte or above is a little harsh sounding.
I already exchanged for 1/4 strength higher from a 3.25 to 3.5, but still am suspecting the Legere Signature is still a little too soft (based on lower pitch and harsh-sounding loud notes). I think they are just OK, but having one or two in your clarinet case is probably a good idea.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-04-21 15:45
Marly asserted that: "Though maybe there's a new category: (d) those who use Forestones and simply must use their Forestone experience as a stick to beat Legeres."
I would rather think of (d) as, those who use Forestones because they think they are better than Legere or cane. And then, there is a possible (e) catagory: those who use Legere only because they have never tried Forestone and don't know what they are missing.
Ultimately, reed choice a matter of personal preference with no "one size fits all" resolution, but for me, I DO like the way Forestones play and do NOT like the way Legere of most cane reeds play. For me, case closed.
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-04-21 16:25
William--
you wrote:
Ultimately, reed choice a matter of personal preference with no "one size fits all" resolution, but for me, I DO like the way Forestones play and do NOT like the way Legere of most cane reeds play.
Fair enough. But there are many here who simply trash products that don't work for them. I think that's irresponsible, and ultimately it reflects back on the player and not the product.
I've read many of the threads on this site regarding Wurltizer Reform-Boehms and it strikes me as similar: you can find comments like "students tend to get instruments of a poorer quality than well-known players who order them", when there is an obvious fallacy involved: namely that the students who received "poorer" instruments were probably poorer players to begin with, so how would they know?
The same might hold true for anyone who trashes other professional level equipment: they might be shouting their limitations to the world rather than giving any real useful information.
Anyone who simply dismisses Legere's is ignoring the testimony of many, many top players. Good luck to them, but a little humilty and civility would probably be in order (though that is certainly too much to expect from the internet, right? Ah well, more's the pity).
By the way, I'd also like to suggest category (f) those who play German cut reeds, which are not as yet available from Forestone--though I'll probably try some when they come out. It does NOT pay to be close minded. Your category (e) was, of course, innacurate if applied to me: I use Legeres for many reasons, not simply because Forestone doesn't offer one.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2010-04-21 19:25)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-21 18:36
I like Eric's response here and he brings up some interesting points.
I have heard many players, from myself and fellow graduate level students to professionals in major symphonies play the legere signatures. And believe me, I WANT these reeds to be ones that I like better than cane reeds.
Eric mentions the quality of the player being a factor. I agree. If you give a great legere or great cane reed to a bad player they will sound bad. This doesn't mean you have to then say that cane reeds are bad or legeres are bad based on such a sampling.
I say that, based an all the players I have heard use these reeds, that there is something in the reeds that is unsatisfactory to me. Certain negative aspects of sound quality, articulation, and pitch are noticeable from the young student to the major symphony professional.
As one legere player recently told me when I brought this up "It's a compromise. You have to decide for yourself if the good in the legere (consistency, clarity, longevity and others) outweigh the bad".
I don't think it is a deficiency in playing that makes these negative aspects of legeres known. I have heard players FAR AND ABOVE my capabilities experience the same issues with these reeds.
Does this mean that legeres are all bad? Of course not. I own a handful of these signature series and sometimes they are the only thing in my case that is functional.
Not acknowledging that they do have issues is just as irresponsible as saying they're horrible and no one should ever use them.
Conversations about alternatives to cane always make me think of the Princess Bride. "Life (reeds) is (are) pain! Anyone who tells you differently is selling something..."
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-04-21 19:00
"Not acknowledging that they do have issues is just as irresponsible as saying they're horrible and no one should ever use them."
You are suggesting a moral equivilance argument, which is dependant upon the notion that, on the basis of your experience and those you have spoken to, these reeds absolutely have the "issues" you describe--as though such a thing has been proven empirically and cannot be argued by reasonable people. But this isn't the case. Legeres are endorsed and used by the likes of Larry Combs, Wentzel Fuchs, Richard Hawkins, James Campbell, Barnaby Robson and many, many other artists (some of whom post here--and some of whom have used them exclusively for years). And though I don't number with those artists in terms of professional accomplishments, I refute your assertion that Legere's have your list of "issues", though perhaps they do when you play them.
I don't think this necessarily makes you an inferior player, just different from those of us who find them excellent in every way (including articulation and intonation, etc).
Please, folks, don't project your problems onto someone else's product: it truly is irresponsible and can result in harming someone's business. For those of you too young or inexperienced to know about that, it really does happen. Remember what your mom hopefully taught you: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2010-04-21 19:23)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-21 20:02
I have heard two of the people you mention play these reeds. Larry Combs said to me, "They are 90% there, it's the other 10% I worry about".
Let's take a few of the issues.
Pitch. The problems with pitch generally are that they play lower than comparable cane reeds. Does this mean they don't play in tune or that this is an issue for everyone? No. Some players enjoy the slightly lowered pitch and their mouthpiece\barrel setup allows for this.
Articulation. I find that it gives a somewhat transparent quality to articulation. Many times you can hear a lot more of the tongue than with cane reeds. This is not always the case and this does vary from reed to reed.
Tone. Many people other than me have talked about an edge or shrillness to the sound that happens when going into loud dynamics. When Larry Combs was talking about them I believe he was referring to a an aspect of sound that isn't quite there in these reeds.
I don't think that all legeres have all these problems with every player all the time. These issues have come up often enough with a wide enough sampling of players that I consider them to be issues.
I do think these reeds are the best non-cane reeds to date and can beat most of the cane reeds on the market. I own some and would advise anyone to have one or two good legeres around to practice on or as a legitimate performance option when cane reeds are not functioning properly (a topic which has been discussed at length...). Some people prefer them to cane, and they are entitled to their preference as I am to mine.
I don't feel it's wrong for me to voice my opinion on these reeds, as I would any other product. There's absolutely nothing wrong with posting my observations that I find to be consistent enough through a wide enough sampling to be considered valid.
I don't think I've been unfair to the company in question. I haven't said anything out of line or slanderous. They've only arrived at their current product and continue to improve it based on honest feedback from players.
If I were on here making slanderous statements about Legere or any other company (like what has been done with some mail order companies on this board in the last few months) with the purpose of damaging their reputation, I would agree with you that if you don't anything good to say, don't say anything at all.
I don't think only nice things should be said when reviewing a product just the same as I don't think only complimentary things should be said in a lesson. This would not allow for improvement or acknowledgment that there is room for improvement.
All this talk of Legeres makes me want to run to the store and stock up on a few before I head back to the states and have to mail order them!
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-21 20:11
My IP address is in the wrong province....owell.
Eric,
Do you see a difference between communicating honest experience with a product and trashing? I hope we can agree that there is a difference and that the purpose of this thread is the former and not the latter.
-Nathan
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-04-21 21:05
Nathan,
Honest criticism and sharing of difficulties is of course valid, and your later posts have been just fine. Your original post in this thread seemed gratuitous to me, and your subsequent arguments less than convincing to me, but my points were made and you clarified yours. That makes for a good discussion, so far as I'm concerned.
Nice to hear you'll be buying some more Legeres. Wish I could get a kickback for that. Did I mention that after they're blown-out you can use them to make imaginative all-weather sculptures? You should see the replica of Yorkminster in my backyard....
Cheers, and all the best,
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
Post Edited (2010-04-21 21:07)
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-21 21:27
Upon re-reading my first post, I did need to include my more specific thoughts that I posted later. Nonetheless I stand by those comments.
I would have bought new legeres soon anyway Eric, as i do have use for them! =)
The advantage in Canada is music stores let you try them in-store, same as mouthpieces, and they clean them afterwards. I usually find that 1 in 5 is good enough to spend the money on it.
Happy practicing,
Nathan
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-04-21 21:51
The advantage in Canada is music stores let you try them in-store, same as mouthpieces, and they clean them afterwards.
Wow. Almost makes me want to swim across Lake Erie to get to that Valhalla of music shops. But only almost
For the record, 1 in 5 is about my rate of finding really good Legeres too.
(Now where's that canoe of mine?...the one made outta blown out Legeres.....gotta get me to Canada....mapquest said I turn right at Browns Stadium and keep on going....)
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: William
Date: 2010-04-21 22:16
For the record, my experiance (so far, after a year) in finding good reeds in Forestone is 5 for 5--given that you have pre-determined the proper strength for your mouthpiece. Mine: F4's on my Chicago Kaspar #14.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-22 01:36
Music stores in Canada are different from most in the states. One (of many) in Montreal has a stock of over 20 R13 Bb's, 11 or 12 A's, several Eb's and several Bass clarinets. Mouthpieces other than vandoren (Backun, viotto, hawkins, etc).
Eric,
Just curious, with the 4 out of 5 that were rejects....what would you say was unsatisfactory about them? (loaded question... asked all in good fun!) =)
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-04-22 01:55
Nathan,
Not taking the bait, holmes! The 3 or 4 out of five that I don't end up playing in concerts are not 'perfect' for me, but they are still superior to cane, and I use them as practice reeds. The most recent order of mine was of six reeds--all six of them are in my case, and I rotate them all, but I would use only 2 of them in concert performances. So that is better than 1 in 5, actually.
I'm extremely picky about performance reeds: they have to not only react perfectly, but feel just right as well. I don't want to waste any time or energy thinking about the reed: the focus should be entirely on the music, and that's what they enable. Consider that I would regularly get about 2 out of 20 V12s that satisfied me (and those blew out very fast comparatively) and you'll understand.
Really, the problem you listed that shocked me the most was articulation. I find that Legeres give a much better 'bounce' to any staccato, and they are just 'cleaner' in general.
Any more of those questions, Nathan, and I'll challenge you to duel at the Canadian border! Reed knives at 20 paces! But WAIT: I'd be unarmed! (Haven't needed a reed knife in about a decade!) Give peace a chance, clarinetists. Trade in your guns, knives, sandpaper, and nuclear handweapons for a cuddly little Legere. Someone should give Guy Legere the Nobel Peace Prize. He's probably lowered the violence rates of clarinetists globally.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-22 02:09
Eric,
Just thought I'd investigate why you didn't find the other ones up to par! Note that I do advocate for their use and own them myself!
Just out of curiosity, what's your setup? Another issue I have with them is that the blank is rather thin and I have trouble with them slipping around unless I use a leather style ligature.
I'm surprised I forgot that one, it's one of the most annoying problems since they tend to slide if I bump it with my mouth the wrong way even. Very frustrating and I would be very afraid of that happening in a performance!
-Nathan
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2010-04-22 03:25
Nathan,
I play on a set of Fritz Wurlitzer Reform-Boehm clarinets made c.1952. My mouthpiece is a Zinner/George Pieterson model, based off an old Fritz Wurlitzer mouthpiece. I use either a traditional string ligature or a Rovner German.
I do agree that the slippery quality of Legeres is a drawback. If they could add some gripping texture to where the reed meets the ligature, it would be helpful. Fortunately, I have two Zinner/Pietersons and, since Legeres don't have to be wet, the instrument on the peg can be ready to go without needing the mouthpiece switch. But I did find the mouthpiece switch very tough with Legeres--I always had to readjust the reed.
(My Wurltizers were just refurbished this winter. Before the big switch, I played Buffet R-13s with a Richard Hawkins/Zinner mouthpiece.)
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: A Brady
Date: 2010-04-22 15:43
To add my thoughts regarding these reeds, last week I played them for the first time on an actual job, 8 performances and 4 rehearsals for a show, alternating with cane here and there. This was a doubling situation (clarinet, soprano and alto sax, bass clarinet), and I used cane on the other horns (various VanDorens.)
The general flatness of the Legere compared to the cane actually worked well in that I was able to use an excellent 66m barrel with my Kaspar, which normally needs at least a 67 to be in tune.
I have also noticed the seeming increase in perceived articulation noise when playing these reeds, but this sound was inaudible in recordings; I've also found that the reeds are quite variable, even in the same strength, and require selection similar to cane in that regard. Yes, it would be great to have a store in my area (NYC) that would allow trying samples before purchase!
In the past, I have found the difference in feel and response between synthetics and cane to be such that I was unable to easily switch from one to the other comfortably, but I had no problem with the Signatures; there certainly is a difference, but it is not that much greater than the normal variation from one cane reed to another to create a problem.
Recording with a high quality machine (I'm using the Zoom H2) gives me the best feedback on gear choices; what we perceive while playing is not necessarily what is projecting to the audience.
All in all, I was very pleased with these Legere's in this professional situation. I'm not abandoning cane, as I love a well-balanced reed, and I can see how the lower pitch could require barrel changes with certain set-ups, but these reeds should be at least tried by every serious player.
AB
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