 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TomD
Date: 2010-04-20 13:18
I've been having a problem with a passage in the first movement. I don't remember having this problem as a kid but I'm 55 now and started playing again 3 years ago. The 54th measure of the first movement ( the first measure being where the clarinet first starts), I'll list the notes just to make sure we are in sync. The measure is all 16ths:
starts on middle C: cbdc edcb ag#ba cbag
I keep the right hand down for the whole thing but when I start the 3rd group going back and forth over the break, my left hand tightens up and I screw it up. I practice it slowing and try speeding it up to 116 but I think I have a mental block now and when I get to that part, I tense up. Any suggestions on how to deal with this? I Know this seems silly to the better players and it is not a difficult passage. Thanks
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-04-20 13:43
I suggest you set the metronome to the tempo that you want to play this. Starting just before where you are having issues, play-only play what you can play perfectly. After you feel comfortable and confident, and not tight, add another note-continue doing this until you can play the passage in question. It is important that while doing this, you play as you would when playing the entire passage. Do not play each added note harder, or exclamated-play it as it would sound in the passage. The problem you are having (I think), is that you are not manipulating the hand in a way that will allow you to play the passage. Practicing it in a manner where you add one note at a time, will help you discern what kind of manipulation is necessary to execute the passage.
DO NOT PRACTICE IT SLOW- Practice it at tempo, adding one note at a time. Practicing it slow allows time for your fingers to dwell. Dwelling time leads to inefficiency, which leads to exccessivieness, which results in sloppy overworking fingers. The problem is there is too much work going on with the fingers. Practicing fast will prohibit you the extra time for inefficient fingers. Keep your fingers small, compact, efficient. in a nutshell, the problem is not that you are not doing enough with the fingers, but too much. Practice fast, so you do not have the time to do everything wrong, but only have time to do what is necessary. Sorry for all my spelling errors.
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Author: Paul Miller
Date: 2010-04-20 16:11
Get a copy of the Jean-Jean "Vade Meceum" and work through the first three exercises at a comfortable tempo for a couple weeks. It should clean things up quick.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-20 17:15
Try looking at your left hand position. There are MANY different angles of approach one can take but for me it is easiest when the first, second and third fingers are perpendicular to the horn and first finger is pretty much already in contact (at the ready that is) with both the "A Key" and the "G# Key." In this attitude, your pinky will be more "curled" and some may frown on this but I find it to work quite well. Test this out with an Ab major scale and arpeggios.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-04-20 17:42
Another thing you might try doing is leaving your LH index finger on the G# key (or even adding the A key) when you play the B. You can't do this with the C or any other upper register fingering, but it's actually quite useful for the B--in addition to getting you in the habit of rolling your index finger, it clears the tone up a bit and makes the B less resistant and more responsive.
By the way, what most people call "middle C" (so named because it's in the middle of the piano keyboard) is ![[C4]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c4.gif) , not ![[C5]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/c5.gif) . At first that's what I thought you meant, until I realized that you can't leave your right hand down if that's the note you were referring to. When posting here, to avoid ambiguity, it's probably better to call the note you were referring to as "C5," "third space C," or "lower clarion C."
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-20 18:33
At the risk of starting a huge conrtroversy, I would respectfully submit that there is NO SUCH THING as ROLLING your index finger.
Where are the muscles in your index finger that allow you to spin it in place?
What we refer to as a roll is actually a twisting of the wrist which, if you actually do this "roll," misaligns the rest of your fingers (two, three and your pinky).
What should be done to engage the "A Key" is a lateral movement of the index finger upwards to nudge it or even place the index finger upon the key.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-04-20 18:52
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Where are the muscles in your index finger that allow you to
> spin it in place?
It doesn't spin in place. It simply rocks onto and off of the first tone hole and A key, like a rocking chair. Most people call it "rolling" the index finger, but I suppose "rocking" might be a little more descriptive. The idea is that you never really "pick up" your index finger, nor do you slide/rub it across the tone hole to reach the A.
>
> What we refer to as a roll is actually a twisting of the wrist
> which, if you actually do this "roll," misaligns the rest of
> your fingers (two, three and your pinky).
If you do what I do, you don't.
> What should be done to engage the "A Key" is a lateral movement
> of the index finger upwards to nudge it or even place the index
> finger upon the key.
But simply calling it "lateral movement" doesn't capture the rocking concept, which is why I prefer to say either "rocking" or "rolling." (not to be confused with "rock 'n' roll," of course )
One exercise that my teacher used with me to teach this finger movement was to finger an E (thumb and first finger) and then play the A without letting go of the E fingering. (so you get an E with an added A key) It sounds terrible, but it helps the student to gain a feel for the movement.
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Author: TomD
Date: 2010-04-20 19:44
Thanks for all of the advice. I tried the first suggestion from Salzo and it already seemed to help. Just curious though, is this passage a "piece of cake" for advanced players or can it be tricky at times?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-04-20 21:17
Is the problem centered on the 3rd beat where the G-sharp is? You might try concentrating first on the problem notes in isolation. Assuming A-G# isn't enough to make the problem appear, play A-G#-B. Check where your left hand ends up when you finger the B. Play B-A-C (I suspect this isn't where the problem is). If that's easy, compare how you started the second group (how were your hands positioned for B) with the way you ended the first group. If the two positions for B were different, try to figure out how you can get to the same position that you had when you started on B. When you can do A-G#-B smoothly, add B-A-C to it, perhaps at first repeating the B, then eliminating the extra note. When you can do that smoothly, add the second beat (E-D-C-B). Follow a similar process - if you can play the original 3rd beat passage cleanly but not when you start a beat earlier, find what's causing the difference. When that's ironed out, add another beat at the beginning.
This approach - basically starting with the smallest problem area you can isolate and gradually expanding away from it, is one that I've often found useful. Of course, the fly in the ointment is that the next day and successive days you may have to repeat the process all over again (although hopefully to an increasing abbreviated extent) until muscle memory starts to kick in and the passage becomes reliable.
Karl
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-04-20 22:55
TomD wrote:
Quote:
Just curious though, is this passage a "piece of cake" for advanced players or can it be tricky at times?
I think most advanced players would consider this passage pretty easy, because it's made up of familiar fragments of finger technique. The 1st and 3rd beats are fragments of a C Major scale in thirds and an A minor scale in thirds, respectively. The 2nd and 4th beats are descending C Major and A (melodic) minor scales, respectively. I think it's safe to say that most advanced players have played these scales numerous times, so passages like this aren't much trouble.
That being said, however, scales and scales in thirds are the kinds of things no one really stops practicing, even highly accomplished players. So, in that sense, pretty much everyone continues to work on this passage (and passages like it).
What I have also found is that the further you progress as a musician, ironically, things that once seemed trivially easy actually become more complicated, because you start to care about things that you either didn't notice or didn't pay much attention to before. In other words, your standards regarding what constitutes "good playing" change and you start to see the complexity of the music for what it really is.
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Author: djphay
Date: 2010-04-20 22:57
I'm playing this for my grade 8 exam in the summer and I found that passage tricky too.
What I found very helpful for this any other semiquaver passages was sometimes to practice them playing only, say, the 1st and 4th semiquaver of each group of four in the bar, or 2nd and 4th, or 2nd and 3rd, or any other such combination. When going back to playing all the notes as written it helped clean up those passages, made the semiquavers more measured and also helped with tricky bits. It's something I use in other pieces of music too where similar problems arise.
David
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-04-21 01:02
Quote:
"What I have also found is that the further you progress as a musician, ironically, things that once seemed trivially easy actually become more complicated, because you start to care about things that you either didn't notice or didn't pay much attention to before. In other words, your standards regarding what constitutes "good playing" change and you start to see the complexity of the music for what it really is."
I think it was Arthur Scnabel who said that "Mozart is too easy for amateurs, but too difficult for professionals".- or something like that.
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Author: TomD
Date: 2010-04-28 12:23
Thanks to all for your input. I've used bits and pieces of different suggestions and I've got it going pretty consistently at 120.
One thing I noticed is that I have to concentrate on making sure my embouchure is "locked down" like a vice otherwise when I go over the break, the movement of the left hand tends to torque the clarinet and that throws everything off.
It's funny though, at 55, some days the fingers just don't want to do what the brain tells them to. I don't remember having that problem at 18 -lol
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-28 14:50
Hmmmm.....
Ideally, there should not be enough force involved in movement of fingers to produce a noticable "torque" one way or another.
There might be too much spring tension in the G# (or both G# and A keys). Have someone (tech or good teacher, or player you know) look at this.
The other worrisome statement is the "locked down embouchure." The force of the embouchure should be somewhat firm, but thought of as energy going AROUND the mouthpiece (much like a rubberband) utilizing all the muscles; lower lip muscles, both cheek muscles AND upper lip muscles.
There should be nothing close to conscious BITING. Though your jaw is involved to varying, slight degrees, it is NOT helpful to think of solving ANY problem with deliberate, exaggerated biting.
....................Paul Aviles
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The Clarinet Pages
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