 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-09 14:36
After reviewing a paper posted by "Old Geezer" I have been working diligently to change how I hold a clarinet.
Let me define "UP." If you hold your clarinet out in front of you, vertically, that is, with the mouthpiece straight UP and the bell straight DOWN, this is the attitude with respect to the thumb to which I refer.
For the past 35 years I have just let gravity have its way with me and I have allowed my thumb to "sag" so that the tip of the thumb is angled 30 degrees or so off the horizontal axis towards the floor.
Now..........
In this article it was put forth that a better way to hold the clarinet for better finger position is to hold it UP actively with the thumb so that the tip of the thumb is pointed at an angle off the horizontal closer to 30 to 45 degrees "UP."
Yes, this does engage more musculature than I have been used to and has led to some fatigue. And yet the angle (when done properly) does distribute the weight of the clarinet through the bones of the hand and arm so that the full weight is not entirely on the thumb muscles.
BENEFITS?
As far as I can tell so far, it is worth while looking at this. The fingers of the right hand line up with the holes this way making technique more sure footed.
Things that are different (negative?) are that the pinky becomes more curved (even curled perhaps) rather than straight. Also, it may very well require a much higher thumbrest position than you currently use. I had my thumbrest moved from a postion opposite the top of the second hole, up, to a postion opposite the center of the first hole !!!! That's quite a difference.
So far I have experienced only positive playing results and the fatigue to my thumb muscles lessens everyday.
Do most of you already have a thumb position like this?
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2010-04-10 06:32
This is absolutely correct! Ask any Alexander Technique person; holding the instrument this way engages your entire arm, shoulder, upper and lower back to support the clarinet. That's a LOT of muscle. The 'other' way puts stress on bone and tendons.
Do a little research on the concept of the 'outer circle' and follow any exercises you come across.
About 6 or 7 years ago, I was all set to have surgery on my wrist. Making the change in the way I used my thumb to support the instrument saved me from the knife and possible further complications.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-04-10 07:30
I disagree with any generalization. I'm guessing my hands are about average or maybe just slightly larger. But I have long thumbs. I remember back in high school I compared hand with my teacher. Her right thumb was about half the length of mine.
My thumb is approx parrael to the floor I think. Sometimes slightly angled down. I tried angling it up and it was terrible and started to hurt me. Same as when I raised my thumbrest once (but not nearly as bad).
>> This is absolutely correct! Ask any Alexander Technique person; <<
Hmm... I have asked - well not ANY Alexander Technique teacher, but several, actually one of them was a student of Alexander - and that's not what they said at all. In fact they were against the idea of a generalization like this. I took lessons, some with the clarinet. One thing they/I tried was to see if a "wrong" position of some things would improve.
It reminds me when I learned English in 3rd grade. We learned how adding "ed" in the end of verbs turned them into past tense. Then we got a huge list of exceptions...
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2010-04-10 13:21
And now I have to disagree with you, I'm sorry to say! Despite small differences, we are all very much the same. You say you have quite a long thumb, which may be the problem for you holding the instrument in a certain way but there will be a solution that allows you to hold the instrument utilising your whole arm, shoulder and back muscles. If you rely on bone & tendons, you're going to have problems down the line. Whether you admit this to yourself now and make changes now or not is up to you!
Not knowing you, you may have already found your solution, I don't know.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-04-10 13:40
Paul, this sounds similar to your question of two weeks ago when you asked about Elsa Ludewig-Verdehr's thumb position. I didn't get a chance to respond then, but perhaps my comments will be helpful now.
I attended MSU, but never had a chance to study with Elsa (long story). However, I did know her, was familiar with her methods, and attended her masterclasses. It was due to her influence that I started holding my clarinet in the way (or similar to the way) you describe.
When I was in college in the 70s, I don't think adjustable thumbrests existed. If they did, they weren't very common. The basic thumbrest that was on just about every clarinet was small. They simply were not designed for a "right thumb almost pointing up" thumb position. To compensate, most of us put long pieces of surgical tubing on the thumbrest. This wasn't ideal, but it made it easier to keep the knuckles lower and the thumb pointing almost up.
I have very long fingers, and I always struggled to find a comfortable right hand position. At one point my teacher turned my thumbrest around and this helped a little. I later installed an early 80s version of the Buffet adjustable thumbrest, but I was never happy with it (very limited adjustments and very small). A few years ago I had a newer Buffet adjustable thumbrest installed, and I use a BG thumb cushion with it. For the first time in many years, my right hand really feels comfortable.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-04-10 14:09
Morrigan: Sorry but I don't understand your post. You first wrote:
>> This is absolutely correct! <<
...when "this" refers to holding the clarinet with the right thumb pointing a little up. As I said, if I do this it is uncomfortable and hurts after a while. Of course holding the clarinet in a way that is more comfortable and healthy is better, but this is not necessarily the way to achieve this.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-04-10 15:24
I think the main thing that can be taken from this thread is that you need to find what works for you. Don't discard ideas just because they are different. If, like me, your thumb is "double jointed", the joints are looser and more easily forced sideways if you rely on the bones and tendons for support. Under some conditions, that can get very sore very quickly. For now, I am using a neck strap. However, I will be using one or more of my clunkers to experiment with thumb rests, pads, etc. before I alter any of my good horns. Yet another reason to explain to the wife why I need so many clarinets.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-10 18:53
Dear BartHx,
Funny you should mention double jointedness. There is clarientist I know who is double jointed. What he had done it to point his thumbnail "UP" (toward the mouthpiece) and he actually points his thumb tip up in sort a hook like stance (....because he CAN). As you may well guess, this angles his palm in a VERY DISADVANTAGEOUS manner (also brings hand too close to clarinet). His playing is quite handicapped and has resulted in disillusionment and utimately finding other career paths...........he refuses to change anything about the "grip."
Not that this is a double jointed issue mind you, but a subtle warning to those who say that everyone must find their own way of doing things because there are SO many correct ways.
I guess I'm just old school and dogmatic that way.
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-04-11 11:53
>>Despite small differences, we are all very much the same.>>
Baloney. My husband and I just measured our hands. If we place the bases of our thumbs together, his thumb is an inch and a quarter longer than mine. It's also a good deal thicker. If we place the heels of our hands together, his middle finger is nearly two and a half inches longer than mine and his other fingers are longer by decreasing proportions, because his hand is considerably more tapered than mine. The difference in our hand size and shape is so marked that we have a great deal of redundancy in our workshop tools -- even including his-and-her sledge hammers. He doesn't play clarinet, but when I've showed him the basics, it was obvious that my thumb rest position would cause him trouble.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2010-04-11 12:07)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-04-11 20:00
Lelia:
Our hand sizes are not as dramatically different as you and your husband, but when we were farming, my wife and I had his and hers tractors and chain saws for safety considerations. Somehow, we need to allow for differences in the sizes of the players.
Paul:
If your friend has a very loose double joint, holding the clarinet in the usual way can lead to extreme pain in just a few minutes of playing.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2010-04-11 21:31
Hand size is what I could classify as a small differnce. I mean this in the context of the internala of how our bodies work. Plus, it is expected that men and women will have different hand sizes.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-04-12 08:26
It's interesting to see, that almost will be cited: "That's the right way...". Couldn't be right.
Every hand is different, every thumb has own breadth and length, every skeleton has own capabilities to bend fingers... I know so many hand positions as I know clarinetists and clarinet models.-) It's true - every clarinetist found his own way to rest the thumb on the vent hole. And there's no absolute truth. Some could roll/shift it to the lever besides, some could turn it easier, some has to move completely the hand...
My opinion is: There's only one right way to find out: try until the hand is relaxed and fast to move without any stability problems. And that's a totally personal way - for each of you (like the "right" embouchure).
kindly
Roman
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Author: crampy
Date: 2010-04-13 05:44
Glad to have found this post as was feeling a bit depressed about my wrist and hand hurting when playing. Will look at those adjustable thumb rests because there's gotta be a better way.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-04-13 14:20
The best way to hold a clarinet is to to hold it with fully relaxed hands (like a grip around a bottle but without any siginificant force). The right thumb should be a "hook" for the thumb rest, but not a withstand for the fingers force.
I often see strong tensed fingers moving slowly and instable because of a geometric mismatch. And the communicated reason is: "My teacher said so..." Wrong way! The only way to do it right is YOUR way. Look at videos of professional players (f.i. Tom Ridenour's teaching videos) and inspect theirs hand positions. You'll be surprised ;-)
The same for the left thumb -> 1000 players, 1000 effective positions...
kindly
Roman
PS: With normal Boehm models I twist my upper and lower joint some degree to each other (lower joint appr. 3-5° left of upper joint) because my right hand can't be relaxed with the straigth adjustment of tone holes. I feel it very sad with full Boehm models with bore (to adjust exactly of course) in the middle tenon.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-04-13 15:20
If you are making adjustments to suit your hands by turning the center joint, be sure to check the bridge key adjustment. Depending on the design of the bridge key, a little out of line can make a big difference in its adjustment.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-13 15:41
I did the "twist" a little myself on a full Oehler, there is NO linkage and all bets are off as to correct position (well, you don't want your clarion C# and G# to be too far from each other).
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-04-13 20:31
Not to say that it isn't a good idea, but the concept of pointing the thumb UP is completely at variance with the principle of the Ton Kooiman thumbrests, which have the approval of an orthopaedic surgeon.
I tried the Etude 2 and could not get on with it at all, I corresponded with Ton Kooiman about my problems and modified the thumbrest considerably to make it work more to the way I thought that it should.
Based on these modifications to the Etude 2, I manufactured a thumbrest to my own specification. The main feature of my design is to carry the weight on the entire length of the thumb - the tip by the nail, the middle joint and the joint with the hand. My thumb is angled slightly downwards in normal use. It works very well for me and gives a very stable and effortless way of supporting the instrument.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-13 22:18
Dear gigaday,
Understood.
Certainly I have (as many do) used this method for 35 years. And funnily enough, the store proprieter who moved my thumbrest to accomodate the "up position," attempted to sell me the cheap kooiman (a very nice product I might add).
I must not have stated the benefits of the "up" position clearly. One's first, second and third fingers of the right hand line up WITH the tone holes (first benefit). There is now much more clearance for the "fork" fingering and variations thereof (second benefit). In totality I find playing of the standard altissimo fingerings not only much easier but even more desireable than my precious alternates.
After almost two weeks commitment, I firmly believe it has been one of the most profound and helpful changes I have ever made to my playing.
And why not just try it out? It's certainly cheaper than buying a new clarinet or even a barrel or mouthpiece and the change is even more profound (in my opinion).
Just thrown' that out there.
............................Paul Aviles
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-04-14 07:06
Yes BartHx, this item (mechanical linkage) is to respect to. But this adjustment of the bridge lever should be done all the time correctly.-) I couldn't find any problem with this link in the past. Up to 5 degree twist shouldn't harm the tone significant.
kindly
Roman
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-04-14 15:49
It depends on the design of the bridge key. Some can be turned several degrees out of line without a negative effect on the upper and lower joint pads it connects. Other designs can throw out the adjustment with only a small misalignment. Most bridge keys can be adjusted to accommodate one position or the other, but with some it is a choice of one or the other only. Just something to keep in mind if you are going to turn the finger holes a little out of line.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-04-15 06:59
Paul Aviles wrote:
Certainly I have (as many do) used this method for 35 years.
and
I must not have stated the benefits of the "up" position clearly.
**
I wasn't actually talking about the traditional thumbrest that hangs the weight on the end of the thumb, but something quite different which I have devised that spreads the load along the entire length of the thumb and, although it borrowed a little from the Kooiman Etude 2, it is quite different in the way it works.
I can also see how the "thumb's up" method would work. It benefits from taking a lot of the weight straight down the length of the thumb, which requires no effort from the thumb muscles and this is a very good thing. I am sure that I have seen people using this position on TV, possible oboe players too.
I am not at all adverse to trying new ideas, in fact I find it hard not to try them and can get very diverted from the real business of just practising. And at some stage I might well give this a go too. Thanks for the tip. (No pun intended.)
My point was more about how different peoples' ideas based on their view of the mechanics/physics can result in solutions that seem to contradict each other. The Etude 2 did not work for me at all in spite of its credentials, whereas my solution does and, when I try it, perhaps "thumb's up" will work even better - but all three ideas have a completely different take on how to support the weight.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-04-15 09:01
@BartHX: My models (different Amatis and ebonite Boehms) all show wide plates for the bridge lever. You only have to twist the lower plate a little bit outsides, because the outer area touch gives a wider opening to the connected lever than the inner area. But this is not a problem to adjust with a small plier.
But you are right, if the lever is only a small ones, this could become a problem. I didn't think about before ;-)
kindly
Roman
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