 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-03-31 09:21
I am about 6 weeks into trying to master double lip embouchure and making reasonable progress.
The Tom Ridenour video on YouTube on this subject suggests using an alternate fingering for C two lines above the stave. He says that to reduce the pressure and pain on the upper lip to put down the LH third finger and the bottom trill key. This does work and gives the right note but I am finding it hard to integrate into my playing.
Question to those who have mastered double lip:-
Do you find it necessary to do (anything like) this or have you found that once your embouchure is strong enough you can play this C with just the thumb hole and register key?
Post Edited (2010-04-01 08:32)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2010-03-31 10:49
I play double lip and do not need to use the fingering you suggest above.
Once you have - as you say - mastered - double lip, there shouldn't be any pain.
Tom Piercy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-03-31 12:05
Tom
Thanks for that. Can you give me some idea of how long it was before you felt "comfortable" with double lip?
Post Edited (2010-04-01 08:33)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2010-03-31 12:58
Nope. No need for that kind of work around.
Once you're comfortable with double lip there isn't any need for any compensation.
Here is my suggestion for playing double lip. Don't fall into the trap that says double lip players have to play sitting down and have to rest the bell of the horn on their knee. It takes a while to get comfortable and to develop the muscles in your mouth but you can play while standing and/or with no knee support. I'd suggest that first thing every day when you're warming up that you do so standing. Not a lot at first, maybe only 5 minutes. Gradually increase the time your are playing while standing. I've found that standing or playing without resting the horn on my knee keeps my hands in the correct position.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-03-31 13:55
The Thurston clarinet tutor mentions that you can use a RH little finger on one of the keys to assist stabilise the instrument (not specifically for DL).
On many instruments I find that putting down the RH E/B key significantly improves the resonance of the B above the stave, the F/C doesn't seem to have quite the same effect on the C but certainly does no harm and is much easier to assimilate than the Ridenour fingering.
I play DL all the time and generally find no need to use any addiional support but admit I do rest the bell on my knee a lot.
The one instance that I find hard is the military band arangement of "Merry Wives of Windsor" where the solo clarinet opens on I think from memory 16 slow bars of high C. That is one tough passage to sustain, especially in unison, and I do sometimes rest my LH 1st finger on the top of throat A key to just assist the embouchure juring those bars.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed
Date: 2010-03-31 14:31
Use a good amount of support from your right thumb to help keep the instrument stable.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tom Piercy
Date: 2010-03-31 16:08
Tony,
I felt "comfortable" practicing almost immediately.
There never really was a period pain as you mention.
I started by practicing 3 minutes, then resting 3 minutes.
It was difficult to maintain that discipline since I wanted - and needed - to practice more, but I found that there were many things I could do in those "off" 3 minutes that helped me learn what I was working on: reeds, score study, fingerings, etc.
I felt comfortable performing using double lip within about 2 months.
The time it took was well worth every minute.
There never really was a period pain as you mention.
Good luck.
Tom Piercy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2010-03-31 16:18
I have no problem with that C and double lip - but G6 (4 lines above the stave) is a bit more tricky if I 've been playing an hour or so and the reed is getting soggy - but rt¦oxo¦xxo usually works - above that I don't have much need for. I find mouthpiece bite protectors are a nuisance if you are double lipping too - peel them off.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: reddog4063
Date: 2010-03-31 17:43
I have never felt the need to use an alternate fingering to make a note with double lip embouchure.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-03-31 19:51
One of the reasons I despair of the Klarinet list and the Bboard is the presence of threads like this.
Obviously the original poster had a legitimate concern, and we don't really know how to resolve it.
Yet, people persist in thinking that they CAN resolve it. Typical is:
>> I play double lip and do not need to use the fingering you suggest above.
Once you have - as you say - mastered - double lip, there shouldn't be any pain.>>
The first sentence is OK. It's just a report of what the poster's experience is.
The second, however, carries the implication that the original poster is capable of mastering double lip, and that that mastery will not be painful.
Well, I'm a reasonably competent clarinet player. I may not be capable of the supreme mastery of tone and technique that the double-lip exponents Tom Piercy, Tonkatoy, Norman Smale, Malcolm Martland et al can achieve; but I do OK.
However, I CANNOT play double lip.
Why? Well, it's because my upper lip is very short, relative to the size of my upper teeth. It makes playing double lip nearly impossible, and, even when I achieve it, very painful in short order.
In fact, if I had HAD to play double lip, I would never have been a clarinet player.
And, it's not as if I'm a freak. Many players are in this situation.
So, I'm going to be a bit loud:
CAN YOU PLEASE STOP MAKING **RIDICULOUS** POSTS ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE **SHOULD** BE ABLE TO DO WHEN YOU KNOW **NOTHING** ABOUT THEIR PHYSICAL MAKEUP!!!!!
If you want a reasonable approach to how double lip may help, and how you may take advantage of that understanding even if you play single lip, see:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=744&t=744
... in the 'Keepers' section.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2010-03-31 20:16
Ya know, the original poster never said, "I have horrible pain when I attempt to play double lip" or "It's really tricky for me to try to play the C with the regular fingering because I'm having pain when I attempt it and my horn wobbles around".
All he said was that he was attempting to play double lip and was making "reasonable progress".
Had he indicated that he was in pain or that the whole double lip thing wasn't working for him, my response might have been different...or I may not have responded at all.
However, if a person doesn't have excessively sharp teeth or an occlusion problem they should be able to play that note without any problems and they should be able to, with practice, to stand while playing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-03-31 20:59
TonkaToy wrote:
>> However, if a person doesn't have excessively sharp teeth or an occlusion problem they should be able to play that note without any problems and they should be able to, with practice, to stand while playing.>>
...and if they don't X; and if they don't Y; and if they don't...then, they should...
GIVE IT UP -- not just you, but ALL OF YOU. Your only justification is an irrational commitment to a prescriptive technique that, though it may work for you, ISN'T FOR EVERYONE. (There are religious analogies.)
As I said, there are some useful insights to be gained from looking at WHY people have come to have that commitment, and why it has worked for them:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=20&i=744&t=744
And of course, understanding what an embouchure DOES is the ground of an understanding of the varying techniques to achieve it:
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2002/04/000770.txt
However, take courage, y'all: double lip ITSELF is UNNECESSARY, even for those who find it helpful.
I'd say that Ridenour's alternate C fingering shows him to live in a different universe from most performers. (IS he a performer?)
I suppose it's interesting to find that I have an 'occlusion problem'. I never knew that.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: salzo
Date: 2010-03-31 21:07
Tony pay wrote:
"Obviously the original poster had a legitimate concern, and we don't really know how to resolve it.
Yet, people persist in thinking that they CAN resolve it. Typical is:
>> I play double lip and do not need to use the fingering you suggest above.
Once you have - as you say - mastered - double lip, there shouldn't be any pain.>>
The first sentence is OK. It's just a report of what the poster's experience is.
The second, however, carries the implication that the original poster is capable of mastering double lip, and that that mastery will not be painful."
The second sentence is also fine, if one reads the original post correctly and does not read it looking for "implications" that are not there.
THe original poster wrote:
"Question to those who have mastered double lip:-
Do you find it necessary to do (anything like) this or have you found that once your embouchure is strong enough you can play this C with just the thumb hole and register key?"
The question is not directed at those who have attempted to play double lip, or those like Tony pay who have issues with such an embouchure; the question was specifically asked of those who have "mastered" the embouchure. It would seem "painfully" obvious that those who have mastered the double embouchure, do not play while in pain.
Tony goes off on a tirade because he infers that there is some implication that learning double lip will not be painful. The author of the quote that Tony is offended by quite clearly says that once it is mastered, there should be no pain. The author does not say there is no pain learning the embouchure, that was not the question being addressed. The question dealt SPECIFICALLY with those who have already mastered the embouchure.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-03-31 22:58
Hi Tony P,
just checked thread to see where I or the others mentioned claimed any supreme mastery over tone, technique or anything else, but can't seem to find it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-03-31 23:36
TonkaToy- the original poster did say that he/she was using a fingering suggested by Ridenour which would "reduce the pressure and pain on the upper lip". If he/she didn't feel pressure or pain then why did he need to use this alternate fingering?
I would ask gigaday what the motivation is to play double lip in the first place?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-04-01 07:20
I am the original poster on this thread!
Thank you all for sticking with me on this one. I live in Spain, don't speak Spanish 100% and my teacher (Antonio) is a great guy and can open doors for me due doesn't actually play clarinet!
Believe me I do find it useful to get people's ideas on how this or that should be done and, being a stubborn git, I make my own mind up about what to do in the end.
I have been playing for 2 years and I am still on the treadmill of getting a good reliable sound - trying reeds and trying to get my embouchure better. The two main problems that I have are a) a rattly sound in chalumeau sometimes but not always and b) difficulty with altissimo.
To which end I asked this (http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=321725&t=321640) on the BB in Feb. The snag with what I was doing was that the cure for both a) and b) above was to apply more pressure to the reed, probably with my bottom teeth - biting(?), which was resulting in a thin strangled sound.
That's why I thought I would have another go at DL.
I tend to hold the instrument somewhat higher than most people so that the mouthpiece goes in my mouth at a similar angle to oboe or sax. I've tried holding it lower but it doesn't seem right at all.
Post Edited (2010-04-01 07:27)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2010-04-01 07:50
I do believe Tony is having a good laff. And it's good to know he's alive and in good spirits.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Malcolm Martland
Date: 2010-04-01 10:47
.....the supreme mastery of tone and technique that the double-lip exponents Tom Piercy, Tonkatoy, Norman Smale, Malcolm Martland et al can achieve...
I'm honoured - I'm sure I'll play much better from now on with such a commendation - but sadly it is 1st April! ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2010-04-01 14:18
Hi I'm Tom and I play double lip ( hi tom). I've never played single lip except on reeds bigger than alto sax. Here is an exercise I give my students if they are having trouble with the high C.
If they are trying to play a C scale inevitably they will air ball the C and maybe the B as well so I have them try this:
1. play low A (get a full sound on this note and do not change air for the following)
2. + Register Key (now playing E)
3. Lift first finger left hand (now playing C#) Pay real close attention to the amount of mouthpiece in your mouth, the shape of Oral cavity and most importantly the AIR
4. Keeping all the above the same. Move your fingers to the C fingering (thumb and register key
The key to mastering double lip getting a consistent "Docking" pressure. I have found that this is more variable with double lip than single. As you change fingerings on the clarinet that Docking pressure changes, I'll bet it's changing on your high C. Tom Ridenour describes this as "snugging" I've found the other Tom to be right on with some of his descriptions.
I just want to ad an opinion what I think makes double lip work better for some people is not that the lip is on top of the mouthpiece it's that most people who switch later in their playing lives have to "rethink" tone production.
When you switch to double lip you have to ask yourself: How much mouthpiece is in my mouth. What is the shape of my throat and oral cavity. What is my approach to breathing. What am I going to practice to get my technique back ect. Any clarinetist, single lip, no lip, or double lip will get make improvements in their playing it they embark on a trip through those questions.
So now I will write something I'm sure will enflame the readers but here it goes. This is Tom P's list of things involved in good tone production starting with the most important first
1. The amount of mouthpiece that is in your mouth. Finding as Tony Pay refers to as "the zone" on the reed and facing
2. The air supply. Good air is good sound
3. the reed. has to work with #1and 2. and number 4 ( I play Rico and I love all the new cuts they've come out with, they each have a different color to them and I love being able to fine tune my sound with my reed choice)
4. Mouthpiece facing curve, not mouthpiece make. (If you can't sound good on a Vandoren, it's not the mouthpiece. Ricardo won his met gig on a Vandoren and if you are clueless about #1-3 you won't really know how to try one effectively. I don't routinely play one, I play a refaced zinner, but I have a few in different facings and depending on the gig I'll play one now and again.
5. top lip on top of mouthpiece (I play double)
6. the type of ligature in use (i'll say the $10 new Rovner sounds just as good as the $50 Bg. I'm sorry but it's true, I'v recorded them looked at them with a spectral analyzer no real difference and the $50 doesn't hold the reed that great.
Ok so let beatings begin
Tom Puwalski, Leblanc Clarinet and Rico reed performing artist
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2010-04-01 15:54
Air Ball? It's when you go for a note and you get neither note nor squeak but you get this sound sort of like "the grunt" (which I've never gotten" but higher in pitch. If you grew up in Baltimore there was an anti liter game called "trash ball" and maybe we adapted the word from that.
Tom P
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: gigaday
Date: 2010-04-02 08:46
As the thread originator I would like to sign off on this by saying:-
Thanks to all for your help and laughs!
I have gone back to my cane reeds, which are a little softer than the synthetics that I was playing before starting out on the double lip journey.
This makes double lip a whole lot easier and I am now making much better progress with it, I can even play G four lines above without too much trouble.
I tried single lip when I got tired after about an hour and it's OK but for me double lip does seem to give me a better sound - so I am going to continue and see where it gets me.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-02 15:19
The original post was whether or not others found it necessary to use alternate fingerings while playing double lip. Some of the replies saying what one "should" be able to do with double lip, to me, were just saying that you shouldn't have a need for alternate fingerings and they hadn't had such a need.
Did someone need to add a post about possible physical attributes that make double lip playing painful or impossible? Sure.
I assume you would agree that no one person has all the right answers all the time? Most of the time, many people have parts of the answer, or at least can contribute their experiences with a certain topic that the OP might find useful. It seems in this thread, you had a piece of information about physical makeup that had been so-far left out of the thread.
Why a reference to religion is necessary in a post about double lip playing is beyond me.
I would say that your recordings as well as solo appearances and masterclasses gives you ALL the credibility you need for people to take everything you say seriously. If you contribute what you feel is the right answer for the original post, people will be more receptive and as a BONUS will be more likely to disregard other posts.
You'll probably disregard this post, or reply quoting various parts of my post as being crazy or wrong. Oh well...
As for DOUBLE LIP. I enjoy playing double lip for brief periods of time to make sure I'm not biting when I play single lip. It also seems to have a positive impact on my air column (relaxing my throat a bit). I don't play with it all the time because I tend to leak air after a while and have difficulty articulating fast in the altissimo register.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2010-04-02 18:25
gigaday wrote:
Quote:
He says that to reduce the pressure and pain on the upper lip to put down the LH third finger and the bottom trill key. This does work and gives the right note but I am finding it hard to integrate into my playing.
To me, it just doesn't seem worth the effort to switch embouchures if you have to resort to awkward fingerings like that just to play a thumb C without pain.
It's entirely possible to learn to control one's embouchure pressure without using a double embouchure. If it wasn't, the single lip embouchure would not enjoy the popularity it does among professionals. For some people, I suppose double lip helps them learn this more easily, but it's not the solution for everyone.
Incidentally, I'm another person who can't play double lip for anatomical reasons. My "two front teeth" (maxillary central incisors) are too long--they are noticeably longer than the rest of my teeth and my upper lip.
Also, I thought I might add that there is a time when I have found a variant of this alternate C fingering to be useful, though, but not for pain avoidance (since I play single lip). The variant I am referring to is essentially the same as described above (you put down LH3 and the bottom side key), except that you also cover the three right hand finger holes. What this does is make the high C speak more easily at very soft dynamics, so you don't "air ball" the C, to borrow Tom's terminology. Obviously, its awkwardness limits its usefulness, but if you're playing something at pp and need to make a delicate entrance on that note, it helps. (Another very useful fingering for this purpose, incidentally, is to add the bottom two side keys to the left-hand sliver key Bb fingering--obviously that has its own set of technical limitations associated with it.)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-04-02 22:22
Nathan wrote:
>> You'll probably disregard this post, or reply quoting various parts of my post as being crazy or wrong. Oh well...>>
Well, my choice certainly includes those options -- as well as the option of totally agreeing with you, of course.
I suppose that that choice in general is determined for me by what people say in their posts. Some of it I agree with, some of it I disagree with; and some I may think of as crazy, and even say so.
You wrote:
>> The original post was whether or not others found it necessary to use alternate fingerings while playing double lip. Some of the replies saying what one "should" be able to do with double lip, to me, were just saying that you shouldn't have a need for alternate fingerings and they hadn't had such a need.>>
What I wanted to make clear was that, to me, the essence of those replies was simply 'they hadn't such a need'. The 'should' bit is redundant, referring not to the replier's experience, but to the situation of the original poster, about which we knew at the time very little.
For over ten years now I have been campaigning for a more adult attitude on the Klarinet list and BBoard: an attitude that strives to speak from an understanding of the complexities of clarinet playing rather than from a dogmatic extrapolation from posters' second-hand wisdom (what perhaps they HEARD or READ some supposedly eminent player had said) filtered through often highly limited experience. I say that too many people who don't know much -- and who anyway cannot possibly know what is appropriate advice in a particular case -- write as though they DO know.
One of the issues that comes up from time to time is the supposed superiority of the double lip embouchure. And the danger of the promotion of that technique as a 'miracle cure' is the same danger that attends other miracle cures: it may distract attention from a proper evaluation of a student's problem.
I have no issue with people who use double lip embouchure, or who find it a superior solution for themselves. I even think that people for whom double lip is suited sidestep some pitfalls that single lip players are prone to, as the references I cited make clear. But those pitfalls are avoidable. I've even learnt how better to avoid them on the List and BBoard.
I even have no issue with a responsible teacher who, in contact with a student, recommends a period of double lip embouchure -- or even a wholesale switch -- because THEY CAN EVALUATE WHETHER OR NOT IT IS WORKING, something that we CANNOT do on the internet.
What we CAN say on the internet, with the arguments I referenced, is: for thoughtful good players and teachers, single lip/double lip need not be a major issue.
>> Why a reference to religion is necessary in a post about double lip playing is beyond me.>>
Well, it's because of the 'miracle cure' promotional stance. I take your point that I over-reacted in the context of the particular post I quoted; I wanted to make it clear that what we want is UNDERSTANDING of a problem, not a willy-nilly commitment to a particular technique. The poster didn't SEEM to be saying anything controversial; but I maintain that, in essence, he was.
Miracles require faith. And notice, for some people, it's worth even changing the fingering for clarion C to maintain the faith:-(
Now, you say that I have some credibility in the world because of my own playing.
What I would say about that is that there are excellent players who talk rubbish about what they do. Some of them are bullshitting; some of them are simply stupid; some of them aren't stupid but have had an educational background that leaves them challenged in discussing matters of even elementary physics and physiology. And I know at least one who has a quite sophisticated scientific background that they criminally misuse in discussion.
So I don't want to rely on any performance ability I have. What I want to do is to have what I say be subject to the question: does it MAKE SENSE?
And that's what I want to hold others to.
>> I assume you would agree that no one person has all the right answers all the time? Most of the time, many people have parts of the answer, or at least can contribute their experiences with a certain topic that the OP might find useful.>>
I would say that in my area of expertise, compared to very many people here, I have the right answers -- until I'm shown to be wrong; which has happened on occasion:-) And that's mainly because I'm very careful to write only things that apply generally.
I'll tell people how the diaphragm works, and how they may use it. I'll tell them what the embouchure does, in general. I'll tell them what the tongue does, and how we MAY think of its action. I may say, "try this, and tell us what happens."
But I don't tell people what they SHOULD do, or what should happen when they play, when I don't know.
Tony
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-03 01:29
Tony,
I would like to sincerely thank you for the honesty and tone of your post in reply to mine.
I very much appreciate you acting in a "keeping things in check" capacity, as I have been the recipient of your knowledge filling the gaps in mine as well!
I do feel that honest and genuine contributions of personal experiences still should have a place here. Even when they are not really aware of what's causing a problem or their solution isn't really solving the problem. I know this is something that bothers you, and I understand your eagerness to lay down the law on something that is in your area of expertise (which is most things clarinet).
Every time I read a post where I know someone doesn't know what they're talking about, I learn from it. I post things here that I feel I know something about, or need some clarification and debate in order to feel more confident about a conclusion I came to on a topic. Recent exchanges about vandoren 13 series mouthpieces with Simon Aldrich and others are a prime example of this. Someone who knows more about the topic both extended my knowledge as well as confirmed some of my own beliefs on the matter. Discussing the diaphragm with you also had a similar affect.
Just some of my thoughts, no need to reply.
-Nathan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
