 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2010-03-23 03:32
How do you feel about experimenting with a tuner in order to help establish a good sound?
I still consider myself a beginner (aspiring to becoming an intermediate before too much longer), and for the past several weeks I have been experimenting with long tones while watching my handy Korg tuner.
I always thought (and I was taught) that one must use the same embouchure for almost all notes on all registers, with the possible exception of very slightly varying it for the upper register notes. However, I am finding that I must vary lip pressure more than just "slightly" say from C4 (1st ledger line below staff) to middle B (middle of the staff) in order not to go sharp or flat, as the case may be.
I only use the above two notes as examples, but there are several others that react similarly on the tuner that requre varying lip pressure.
Am I all wet on this, or do you agree? If not, please advise how you think a tuner can help with achieving a better sound. Also, my teacher told me NOT to pull out the joint(s) to achieve tuning, and that I should be able to blow a true pitch without resorting to this procedure.
Carl
CarlT
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-03-23 07:25
Ditch the tuner. Use your ears.
Whomever you are trying to tune to is not 100% in tune themselves, and you must be in unison with them (even if that means 15 cents off any given note) rather than insisting on the green tuning light.
Use your embouchure (aka "lip up" or "lip down") to tune your clarinet to a reference. Of course, this must be within a certain comfort zone, and I see nothing wrong in pulling joints to get the "basic" tuning.
A tuner won't help you with a better tone (if you mean "timbre", "colour", "depth", "projection" and whatnot). Again, use your ears, use other people's ears, use a recorder (a recording device, not the wind instrument). The latter will reveal most detail, so use it with caution, it's easy to get a depression form listening too much. :-)
--
Ben
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-03-23 10:54
Trying to match a tuner note or center the arrow on one note after another will drive you crazy. The best use for a tuner is to set it to sound a note and learn to play intervals -- fifths and fourths, and then major and minor thirds.
Ken Shaw
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-03-23 11:05
A tuner is a very good tool to use to work on tone and sound.
in my experience (assuming your equipment is all in good order), a clarinetist plays out of tune when they are doing something wrong. Most often it is the embouchure, but also how the air is leaving your body, how you are supporting your air stream, etc.
Lets say you are consistently playing sharp. Sit down with a tuner, and figure out what type of adjustments are necessary to bring the pitch to where it is supposed to be.
What you will probably notice, is not only will your pitch come down, but your tone will be better, your control will be better, and playing will become much easier, because your body is now positioned correctly.
After readjusting it is important that you work up a memory as to what is required to play "correct" Use the tuner, and it will prevent you from slipping back to the old way.
A metronome is also a helpful too for working on tone.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-03-23 11:15
For the first time the tuner helps to find the right intonation ("on the note"). But for the future think about tictactux' words! The most im portant thing is the ear training and the search for the "good tone". Intonation is one thing, but the stability and reproduceability of tone is important too. Both together will build the "correct sound".
kindly
Roman
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-23 14:18
Hmmmm.....
Firstly the notes you mention should not be too far from one another as you describe. If you'd mentioned the "B" below the staff, I could see your point better. The "C" in my experience should be pretty middle of the road pitch. The "B" in the middle of the staff may be a bit higher due to the Boehm compromise and all, but not as much as the "B" and "A" below the staff.
I don't find that much adjustment IS necessary at a given volume. Where one gets into a bind is a fortissimo first space "F" vs. a pianissimo "B" or "A" below the staff.
That said, I believe tuner work is quite valuable. I use a tuner on SOUND and play a "tonic" to whatever scale or scale pattern I practice. Using a generated tone center is much handier than tuning individual notes with the meter because it DOES NOT beg the tempered vs. relative tuning issues.
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: William
Date: 2010-03-23 14:41
Good intonation is good cooperation. Meaning, there is not an ensemble in existance that plays perfectly in tune at all times with a tuner. They best ones play "in tune" with themselves and that involves listening and adjusting to a variety of factors--soloists, differnet sections and the tambres they produce, change in dynamics, melodic or accompaning lines, changes in harmonics and key signiture, etc. Tuners operate from the "just" or natural tuning system that exists in nature, but pianos and ensembles operate via the "tempered" system which compensates for subtil "just" imperfections that necessarily exist between changes of harmony and key. That's the basis for Bach's "The Well Tempered Clavier"--a keyboard instrument which is not perfectly in tune with a tune but well in tune with itself. Modern pianos are really everso slightly out of tune if compared to the uncompromizing ear of a Korg tuner. So, the best advice is to use your tuner to find out which notes on your clarinet are slightly out of sync within each register so that you can use embouchure (and ear) to bring them into pitch with those sounds you hear around you. No clarinet is in tune--they all must be *played* in tune and if you have memorized which notes need adjustment, then you can lip them up or down as needed. We all do that. Nobody plays with a rock-solid embouchure that does not change slightly for certain notes or register changes. That's a myth.
It is perfectly normal to pull any joint on your clarinet to bring your instrument closer to being in tune with itself or with the ensemble. Tune your G4 first, pulling the barrel if necessary. Then check G5 thru D5--if overly sharp, pull your middle joint a bit. Then check C5 & B4--if sharp, pull your barrel a bit. This process should bring you clarinet as in tune with itself as possible--note that it will never be perfect. After this, then you can further adjust the entire clarinet by readjusting the barrel joint as needed. After that, it is up to your knowledge of which notes need embouchure favoring (lip up or down) and your ear.
Quality of sound is really up to what your mind tells you is "good" and how you learn to acheive that through oral voicing, embouchure control and reed/mouthpiece set-up. Perfect intonation on any given note will enhance tone quality, but is not a direct factor. It's more a result of fine tuning your breath support, oral configuration and reed/mouthpiece tone production efficiency. Let what you think is good or what you want to sound like be your guide--then learn to play that sound in tune.
I do not understand what a metronome has to do with the production of a good tone quality other than it will be played with rhythmic accuracy. Playing with a metronome is good practice, but has nothing to do with how your clarinet sounds, quality wise.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-03-23 15:50
Carl,
Don't give up on keeping your embouchure solidly in place throughout all registers.
Your switch from C4 to B4 moves the clarinet from its fundamental tone (chaleumeau) , to the third harmonic (clarion). The clarinet does not do that as well as most other instruments. A major reason is that the register vent "should" be located about 1/3 of the way down from the mouthpiece to the first open hole in the note you are fingering. For the long tube notes at the bottom of the clarion register, the register key is far too high up the tube.
The designers of your instrument have placed the register vent in a compromised position --and forced you to used it to play the "pinch" Bb.
Try fingering E5 and, without changing your embouchure, open the register key while watching your tuner. I'll bet you can't get the B4 to start close to zero-cents. Try all of the register jumps. Some, in the middle of the clarinet will be pretty good; and the higher ones will probably be sharp.
The above commenter are right in that you have to fiddle to make the clarinet play in tune with itself. Some instruments are impossible! My current one is pretty good, but ...
Try doing things other than changing your lip pressure to vary the pitch. Change your vocalization from "eeeee" to "AAAHHHH".
A solid embouchure (and air support) is the basis for fast articulation. Without it, you'll have trouble getting your altissimo to speak.
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with checking up on yourself with the tuner to see if you can attack a note and have it start right on perfect pitch. In playing with a piano (that is in tune), you've got a head start if you can play an even tempered arpeggio. In an ensemble of strings and winds, I can't think of a better starting place unless you recognize that have the 3rd in a chord and want to start it flat while your ears tell you what to do to perfect the harmony.
I think you have a good attitude toward your plans to improve your playing. Thanks for coming here to ask questions.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-23 20:10
Yes, you don't change your embouchure but you need to be flexible. It doesn't have to change in order to be a little tighter or a little loser to help play in tune. Playing in tune involves a lot more then just an embouchure. Focus on getting a good tone first, embouchure, throat, tongue, breath control, mouthpiece, reeds they all play a part in getting a good tone. Once you have that, as well as good control, then you learn to become flexible and play better in tune. You will also need to experiment with the barrel, it's size and placement, with using different fingerings and adding fingers or opening keys to help change the pitch of some notes and of course you have to learn to listen. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-03-23 20:13)
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Author: William
Date: 2010-03-23 21:43
"a little tighter or a little loser to help play in tune"
I am sorry, folks, but the fact that you do loosen and tighten for those "certain" notes or other players pitch variations does mean that you CHANGE your embouchure. It absolutely impossible to keep it rock solid in one position if you loosen or tighten a bit. To tell an amature to play with the same embouchure in all registers is ridiculous. You must loosen for notes above C6 or they will go quite sharp. You must tighten on low F3 & E3 or they will remain flat on most clarinets. And to my way of thinking, this is CHANGE and flexability. Also, playing in the upper register often requires special voicing or change of oral configuration--raising the back of your tongue as if immitating a cat's hiss. Another change....... So why does everyone insist on saying, "Kid, you've got to use the same embouchure in all registers to be "good". I think it is a lot misleading to a most beginners.
Personally, I change my embouchure all the time for intonation, tone coloration and variations of style. That's just the way it is done...........
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-03-23 22:56
William,
I think that you are talking about one or two levels above the "consistent embouchure" level.
Obviously, you can't let your clarinet's uneven scale go unchecked, and one needs to "color" one's sound with voicing changes.
The BUT: you don't want an advancing student "chewing" on his/er mouthpiece to get the notes to speak either.
Bob Phillips
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-03-24 12:19
"So why does everyone insist on saying, "Kid, you've got to use the same embouchure in all registers to be "good" "
I teach 'kids" and I tell them to keep a constant embouchure. In my experience, when you tell a kid to "tighten up" to play in the higher register, their reaction is to try and smash the mouthpiece with excessive jaw/embouchure pressure.
Of course we make subtle adjustments, but to an inexperienced or not so experienced player, "subtle" is very hard to achieve on any aspect of the clarinet.
When I am working with a student new to the altissimo, my goal is to have them play the notes with instant response. The result is the high notes come out quickly, but are flat. once they are comfortable with the fingering system, reading the notes on the page,and the new fingering system of the upper register is no longer an issue, I ask them to use their ears to adjust the pitch. Usually I do not even tell them how to do this.
Basically, i find it much easier to have a student "do a little more' to correct a problem, than to get them to "do less". When I have taught them to "tighten up', it almost always resulted in overtightening, and once that jaw is clamped, it is very difficult to get the student to loosen up.
There is a lot going on with the high register that is new to the novice. Weird fingerings, weird sounds, weird looking notes way above the staff with little lines-all this weirdness makes it very easy to overwork, and tense up (translation tense embouchure). Once they feel confident with the reading, the fingerings, the sounds-then the intonation issues are addressed. And it often requires just telling the student to listen and adjust.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-03-24 14:54
@salzo: That's the way ;-)
My trick is to learn (at the beginning) the fingering and tone start separated from the tune. Tune adjustment I realize first as long tones and later as fingered loop. The connection between fingering and ear guided embouchure adjustment comes later by repeating and repeating. The ear is trained well to hear a "false" tone from te long tones exercise, but the body knows the fingering automatic. For the first exercises of intonation I use a tuner too.
After some weeks, the body itself adjusts the embouchure to a "medium" position without changings lip strength. And that's the goal.
kindly
Roman
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-03-24 15:41
Thank you, Salzo.
Yours sounds like an efficient way to teach the altissimo. In my case, I need to use many alternative fingerings to "twitch" my way to the next alti note and/or to get the intonation right.
You have clarified the difference between stable embouchure and pitch control in a very practical way.
Bob Phillips
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