 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-13 01:41
I just received my 1969 vintage R13 in the mail from an EBAY purchase and it seems to be what the seller advertised. Nicely overhauled and crack and chip free. I have been playing a Yamaha 52 for several years and thought it was time to move up the food chain. I just did a playing test and I have a question about what I just experienced and would appreciate some insight from the board members please. I enjoyed the "darker" sound from this R13 and most of the notes play relatively easily in comparison; however, I immediately noticed I have to blow considerably harder to drive the R13. I am using the same mouthpiece, a Vandoren 5RV with a number 3 Vandoren reed for both and switching back and forth to test differences in sound and resistance. Is this a normal phenomenum I am experiencing with the added resistance on the Buffet? Do I need a different mouthpiece/reed to ease the blowing effort?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-03-13 02:26
Check the top joint is nice and airtight - if there are any leaks this can add resistance.
As you've played your Yamaha for a considerably long time and are used to how it plays, the differences will be noticeble as soon as you play another clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2010-03-13 02:43
Hi, Buit15. Your Yamaha 52 has a much larger bore than an R13, especially an older one like yours. There are trade-offs with the smaller bore. As you've noticed, it is more resistant. However, The R13 does get a darker, more compact, focused sound.
Most players do make adjustments for the extra resistance. In the 1960's and 70's, many players sent their clarinets to Moennig to have them opened up. Nowadays, the first thing most do is switch to a custom barrel. Both the Moennig and Chadash barrels will open up the sound and reduce resistance while improving intonation and clearing up throat tones. Of course, most modern custom barrels like Backun accomplish the same thing. Many players will compensate for the smaller sound of the smaller bore by using a larger tip mouthpiece. Also, many players will use a slightly softer reed to reduce resistance. However, using a 3 on a 5RV means you're already a bit towards the light side.
I have some 5RV Lyres that play exceptionally well that I have collected over the years to eventually give to students. I have noticed that, while these play well on my 60's Buffets, they really sing beautifully on larger bore horns like modern R13's and E11's. You may find that another model Vandoren mouthpiece or even other brands of mouthpieces are a much better match for your vintage R13 than your 5RV.
BTW, when I'm playing by myself, I love the tone of the newer, larger bore, freer blowing and more colorful Buffets. However, as soon as I get with a large group, the effortless projection, focus, and flexibility of my older Buffets is just unmatched. Also, the sound just gets better as I get louder. In other words, you may not fully appreciate the benefits of your new (to you) clarinet until you're performing with a big group or playing in a large hall.
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Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-13 11:43
Thanks for very insightful response. Can you please recommend which Vandoren other then the 5rv would be good as a first try. The clarinet was overhauled by Guy Chadash and I will also try to contact him about what he would recommend for a barrel if the mouthpiece does not do the trick.
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2010-03-13 12:02
I thought tapered barrels created resistance
not decrease resistance.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2010-03-13 15:17
Try a M13-Lyre and a M15. Test out several of each at a music store.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-03-13 16:28
What are the bore dimensions of the YCL-52 and the Buffet R13 and how (specific numbers please) has the bore size of the R13 changed from the 1960s to the present? (Reference to the sources of this information would be nice as well.)
Thanks,
jnk
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Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-13 19:57
What qualities or traits do these 2 models possess versus the 5RV Lire he is using? Thanks.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2010-03-13 20:40
Jack:
WWBW Clarinet Specs
Vintage R13 .571" (copied after 50's-70's models, although I have found most early R13's to be in the .567-.569" range and, I seem to remember reading somewhere in the 80's that Buffet's official published spec for the older R13's was .567")
Current R13 .574" (which I have found to be pretty accurate and consistent)
Yamaha 52 14.7mm = .57873" (according to Yamaha's website, I will link if you need it)
Buffet changed the R13 bore twice, once around 1979 and a second time, to its current configuration, around 1981. Both were larger than the older R13's.
Cxgreen48, while many might feel that a taper creates more resistance in a barrel, this would be more than offset by the larger bore of a modern barrel compared to the older R13 barrels.
Buit15, many players use a B45, B46, or B40 on older R13's. I used a custom faced B45 for 25 years on older R13's and was very happy with it. I currently use a Borbeck 13 but am looking to find a Borbeck 14 or similar, more open mouthpiece. I'm definitely in mouthpiece trying mode since my trusty B45 got ruined. The M13 Lyre and M15 are worth a try if you want to stay on a smaller tip and perhaps use a slightly stiffer reed. They are closed tip, long facing mouthpieces with a thick tip rail. Although not my cup of tea, some really great pros are using them with good results.
In fact, there are several brands of mouthpieces out there that a lot of excellent players are very happy with. Unfortunately, you're going to have to try them yourself to see what works for you. Just one caveat, what sounds great in a try out room doesn't always work as well in other settings. Be sure to try out mouthpieces in a variety of places and, if possible, in different musical settings. Sometimes, another player whose advice you trust (a friend or teacher, perhaps) can really help by providing an extra set of ears and a different perspective.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-03-13 21:07
I have both Buffet Festival Bb and R-13 Prestige Bb(as backup) and I really have to use more air and diaphragm support to play the R-13 Prestige specially down low and the intonation is a bit different too.
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Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-14 00:35
I went to the Vandoren web site to get some specs on the various mouthpieces and was overwhelmed by the amount of different models and I need some more help obviously. One of the few understandable specs to read (not completely understand but able to read) is the mouthpiece opening. Can I assume that the larger the opening, the less the basic resistance? I see the 5RV Lire I am playing is a 109+ where the B45 has a 119.5 opening. The B40 is same size as B45 but is described as having a wider tip rail (?) than the B45. For more confusion, they also offer a B45 black dot (119.5 opening with pretty much same description of use), a B45 Lire (bigger opening at 127 and they recommend a softer reed than other B45s), and finally a B40 Lire (slightly smaller 117.5 opening but longer profile and softer reed recommended versus regular B40). Who knew picking a mouthpiece would be like launching a spaceship. Another term that I probably need help understanding is facing length (my 5RV is a medium, while B40/45 are medium long spec). Any and all help in furthering my education is greatly appreciated.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-03-14 00:42
Actually, larger tip openings INCREASE the resistance, requiring you to use softer reeds to get the sound out. Narrower tip openings offer lower resistance, and require harder reads. (Caveat: this is if all else remains equal (lay length, chamber and baffle designs and whatnot. Rarely is everything else equal). Try many different mouthpieces, even of the same model designation, to see what will work best with your new instrument. O consult with some of the custom makers, such as Walter Grabner, Greg Smith, Brad Behn or Ben Redwine.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2010-03-14 00:44)
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2010-03-14 02:24
Hi, again, buit15. JJAlbrecht is technically correct. However, you'll find that a larger tip opening with a softer reed will actually allow you to move more air through the horn, which many players seem to feel results in lower resistance. Resistance, among other terms, is one of those things that is hotly discussed and debated among players and mouthpiece makers alike. Also, as I said, the smaller bore of the R13 does get a more compact sound and a larger tip (or longer facing or larger chamber) mouthpiece will help get a bigger sound.
For some reason, Vandoren's published specs are more open than their mouthpieces used to measure. Look at this WWBW chart and see what they actually measure at: WWBW Mouthpiece Opening Chart.
This doesn't seem to agree with Vandoren's specs at all: Vandoren Chart.
I have only bought one Vandoren mouthpiece in the last couple of years, a B45 dot that measured at 1.17. Maybe Vandoren has started making the tip openings larger? I'm sure there are people here on the boards that will know about that. Still, I have 5 older B45's that all measure between 1.11 and 1.13 and all three of my 5RV Lyres measure either 1.05 or 1.06, which lines up perfectly with the WWBW chart. All the older Vandorens I have ever measured also agree with the WWBW chart, not Vandoren's.
There are other threads on facings if you want to do some in depth reading, but I'll give you a quick synopsis:
1) Bigger tip openings typically use a softer reed, take more air, and give a bigger, fuller, and generally more spread sound.
2) Longer facings take a stiffer reed, are easier to play, get a bigger, fuller, more spread sound, but can get bright and/or reedy. Long facings improve low register response while short facings favor high register response.
3) A thick tip rail adds resistance, makes the tone darker and fuller, and slows down response, especially when tonguing. A thin tip rail improves response, makes the sound thinner and brighter, and helps tonging response.
Most medium tip mouthpieces have a medium length facing, like the 5RV and 5RV Lyre. Most medium open mouthpieces use a medium long facing, like the B45. The Kaspar sound comes, in part, from a facing that is typically a little shorter than average for the tip opening, giving extra focus, power, resistance, and darkness, like a Vandoren B46. The old style Chedeville facings are usually longer than average for their tip opening, calling for a stiffer reed and typically giving a very focused yet live and colorful sound, like the Vandoren M15. There are lots of players using any one of these set ups and playing fantastic. So, choosing a mouthpiece is a combination of how you want to sound and how you want the mouthpiece to blow/feel/respond.
Of course, chamber size and shape and the throat design are also critical components that work in tangent with the facing. In other words, balancing out all the factors is as much art as science and no two mouthpieces play alike. This is why you even need to try several of the same model or even get a mouthpiece custom made/worked for you.
Post Edited (2010-03-14 16:13)
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Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-15 00:50
Sounds like I should try a B45 and stay with my #3 reed to see if I can "move more air through the horn" like ww.player says. At least I will have 2 mouthpieces with me when I vist Guy Chadash in NYC for a demo of some of the barrels he wants me to try to clean up this resistance issue. I won't call this a problem anymore as I am starting to get used to this extra blowing I have been doing for the past couple of days on the R13. I have played about 5 hours now on my new clarinet and I am still experiencing this resistance, but it does not seem so shocking anymore. Thanks all for the time responding and it was the start of a good education for me.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2010-03-15 02:42
Buit15, be sure to try more than one B45. If you don't click with one right away, I would recommend not spending the money. I've taken students to the store to get a B45 and come away empty handed after trying a dozen. Many just don't play really well.
Also, a B40 Lyre, M30, or even B44 (if you can find one) would probably be less of an adjustment than a B45 coming from the 5RV Lyre. The B45 really does take a lot more air than the 5RV mouthpieces.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-03-15 14:26
If you're heading to see Mr. Chadash in NYC, why not stop at the Vandoren store in the city, too? You can try out and number of different mouthpieces there.
Jeff
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Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-15 15:26
ww, I guess I am confused about which mp to move to next. You are saying the B45 is more of an adjustment than the B40 Lyre, M30, or B44. Can you please explain to me why this is so. Thanks.
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Author: ww.player
Date: 2010-03-15 16:49
Hi, again. The B40 Lyre and M30 are slightly more closed than the B45 but with a longer facing, which will make them easier to play. The B44 has a smaller tip opening than the B45 and so also takes less air.
I have observed that moving from a 5RV Lyre to a B45 has been a major adjustment for the students that have tried it. However, most of my students play on the modern Buffet bore (E11 or R13) so the 5RV mouthpieces work really well for them.
All I'm suggesting is that you try as many mouthpieces as possible so you start to get an idea of what's out there and what will work best for you and your new horn. Just think of this as an opportunity to not only upgrade your sound but also to learn about how other players approach the instrument. You can figure out a lot about other people's and your own playing by seeing what it takes to make someone else's preferred mouthpiece work for you. And, you might just stumble across the perfect mouthpiece for you in the process.
I agree with JJAlbrecht. I'm sure Guy Chadash has lots of mouthpieces you can try. I've talked with him before and he is an extremely knowledgeable person. I'm sure he'll be glad to help you.
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Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-15 20:44
ww thanks again. Just to throw some more complexity into this, I heard about a mp from Ralph Morgan that was highly recommended. It is a model 15. Do you know about this maker and if it has merits?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-03-15 20:56
I have owned a number of Morgan mouthpieces - each one was made for me by Ralph after a long telephone conversation (If you knew Ralph, he loved to talk on the phone, so the phone calls were very long)
He was a lovely man who had a tremendous understanding of clarinet acoustics and voicing.
He should be ranked with any of the premiere mouthpiece artisans.
My primary Eb clarinet mouthpiece is a Morgan.
...GBK
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Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-19 13:05
Just to update all that have been helping me find a mouthpiece for my "new" R13, I heard from the Vandoren rep, Dave Gould, and his recommendation was to try a V12 #3 reed first, which is a bit softer and responsive versus the standard #3 Vandoren I am using. Next would be to try the M13 Lire, M15, or M30 mouthpieces instead of the 5RV Lire. He is going to meet with me in the city to help try out these mouthpieces at his shop. He recommended Wright music in Port Washington as another shop that allows Vandoren mouthpiece tryouts. After the mouthpiece selection, I am going to see Guy Chadash for a barrel fitting and overall assesment of the overhaul he did on my Buffet. Thanks to all for the advice so far and I will let you know how it turns out in a couple of weeks.
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