 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-03-10 19:10
I'm trying to get a history of the Chedeville mouthpiece blanks. Several of the mouthpieces have the actual name on them, others don't.
The blanks he used were from France. A lot of the blanks were sold under assorted names, such as mellophone - spelling? Does anyone know if the blanks were used for Buffet, Selmer, or any other companies from the 1930's and 40's? These blanks often didn't have a name on them. Anyway, any feedback regarding the history of actual blanks would be great.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-10 19:39
Pre-wwII chedevilles:
Henry Chedeville
Charles Chedeville (artistic facing, steel ebonite markings)
Lelandais (similar markings as Ch. Ched).
Bettony france (not sure of exact markings)
Post wwII chedevilles:
Buffet (1 up 3 down lig. lines)
Selmer "Table ****" and oval facing marking.
Kaspar (primarily Cicero and Chicago)
Charles Chedeville (any lig line combination. includes "egyptian" scroll)
Bundy (with a signature, I think?)
There are many others...those are the ones off the top of my head at the moment.
Hopefully Brad Behn or someone will come on and discuss more on the pre-war designations and brands. There is some information already on the bboard if you do a search.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-03-10 23:31
"Selmer "Table ****" and oval facing marking."
I have two old selmer mouthpieces, one is an "HS*", the other is an "S".
Both of these mouthpieces have the facing designation on the table, surrounded by an oval.
Are these mouthpieces made from chedeville blanks?
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-11 00:07
Salzo,
They are of the post-war chedeville crop. The HS* is a close facing (around 1.00 mm) and the S is medium open (not sure exactly on the tip opening). They have an A-Frame (If you look through the bottom of the mouthpiece, you'll see the rails on the inside tilt wider at the bottom than the top, hence "A")
They can play alright in their original shape, but are very inconsistent from piece to piece. Brad Behn and others like these blanks and do wonderful work on them.
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-03-11 02:01
Thanks NBeaty-
When I read your original post, I was wondering if I had something worth having refaced. I guess I do.
After reading your post, I got out a box of old mouthpieces. Found another one that is marked "steelite ebonite", " france", and the number 5 on it.
Has 1 line up, 3 line down. Do you know anything about that one?
Thinking of having some of these pieces sent to someone to do work.
Do you know if Brad Behn will work on mouthpieces that are sent to him.
He did say that he would duplicate one of my mouthpieces using one of my own blanks, but am wondering if he will take blanks to do his own original work.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-11 02:43
steel ebonite doesn't mean anything on its own. The odds are it's nothing special, but if you're sending off any of the others to be refaced- send it as well and Brad will tell you what it is.
I've never sent him a true "blank" so I'm not sure what his policy is with that. The only scenario i could imagine would be if it's a zinner blank and he only sells his own zinner models (maybe). Or if the mouthpiece was not salvagable for some reason (He can repair most anything, I'm told).
Send him an email and a list (pictures if you can) and he'll tell you everything you need to know! He's very helpful and very professional.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-03-11 07:18
Can anyone tell me how to tell if an old Buffet MP comes from the same blanks as the Ched's? It's hard for me to tell how old they are. I have one that has Buffet logo stamped on the bottom, instead of the center.
I have another MP without any stamping on it but the word France and 2 C's on the side, but the C's face each other. So it looks like one C is backwards. Does this mean anything? At one time this was my favorite mouthpiece to play.
I also have a mouthpiece that is a bit shorter than most mouthpieces and it is very old. This MP belonged to Gennusa. He dropped it and broke the tip. I was still able to take close measurements of it. Anyway, Gennusa said he got it from his teacher Bonade. He claims it was a Chedeville, but were there any companies making smaller blanks? Gennusa said this was his favorite mouthpiece and the MP he did most of his symphony work on.
I had no idea that the old Selmers, with the stamp on the table, were the same blanks. I run into these a lot, guess I better start buying them.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-11 14:25
The bottom logo with 1 and 3 ligature line configuration is a chedeville blank. These are some of the worst blanks out there (the buffet ones) though and probably play quite poorly.
I'm not sure about the opposing C's. You'd have to ask one of the mouthpiece makers. Could be something, could be nothing!
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2010-03-11 15:00
I've found very few Buffet mouthpieces that are worth refacing- the vast majority have major problems (such as a too-wide throat, or the baffle dips below the bore) that make them less than ideal mouthpieces when finished. I really like the old Oval-stamped Selmer mouthpieces as a strating point.
Vytas Krass takes the good ones, and makes really good mouthpieces out of them. Brad can do the same, of course, but I don't know how much time he has with his other projects.
Bob- interlocking C's are the benchmark used by Chedeville back in the 1920's and 30's. Those are my favorite vintage blanks. They were printed faintly at times, and were small, so it may look like opposing C's after all of these years. I also saw one that had what looked like opposing C's, and after closer inspection, I realized it was an 8 that had mostly worn off. The big test: put a facing on it and try it!
Chris
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-03-11 18:06
Interesting topic for sure. I guess I have a few Ched blanks I didn't know about.
Thank you everyone for sharing your info. Maybe, as a group, we can all put something together as a guide, so musicians don't throw them out thinking they aren't worth anything.
Is there any information regarding this one mouthpiece I have thats a shade smaller in height compared to most other mouthpieces?
Now I have to check out my stock of mouthpieces! I must have 200 or so. Perhaps some of them are worth taking a look at and reface/redo a few of them.
I'm sure Eddie Palanker remembers this store. There was this store behind Peabody Conservatory full of 4 stories of old stuff, from old violins to baskets full of mouthpieces. The place was called Teds Music. It was a blast looking through dust covered "Stuff!" Anyway, I picked up a lot of mouthpieces from this store at the cost of $3 or so per mouthpiece, not knowing what to look for. Everytime I came outta this store my hands and shirt were black! I was so dirty!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2010-03-12 01:42
There is a good information in the "Keepers" page entitled "How to tell a Chedeville mouthpiece" The makers e.g. Greg Smith, Brad Behn, Chris Hill, Ben Redwine, Richard Hawkins, Vytas Krass, Mike Lomax, Grabner, etc. all have been around the classic Chedeville mouthpieces for a long while and would probably evaluate mouthpieces for their potential as good players for a small price. Most of the mouthpieces post WWII were molded but some remaining stocks of pre-war rod rubber mouthpieces trickled out later - mostly from LeLandais or orders for clarinet makers.
L. Omar Henderso
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2010-03-14 21:09
NBeaty wrote:
>"Post wwII chedevilles: Selmer "Table ****" and oval facing marking".<
No, they are NOT Chedevilles.
BTW. Selmer "Table" mouthpieces are much older than the "Oval" ones. Some of them date as far as 1920’s
Vytas Krass
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Professional clarinet technician
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-14 21:51
Any chance you could say what these selmer blanks ARE?
I've always heard they were late a-framed cheds.
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Author: Brad Behn
Date: 2010-03-14 23:28
I enjoy the fact that there remain many people who value a good old mouthpiece for customization purposes. There are seemingly millions of mouthpieces floating around in repair shop junk drawers, and Ebay. Some decent things can be purchased for only a few dollars, and then refaced to produce good resonance and a fine playing experience. Indeed it is rare to find a golden-era goodie but I still hear some great stories that make me envious from time to time. The point is, that for someone who already has a junk drawer full of mouthpieces that aren’t being used, it is perhaps worth consideration that refacing and customization may be the solution. In my experience one can buy a 60’s era Bundy, France) mouthpiece on ebay for just a few dollars, it won’t play well but once refaced it could be a mouthpiece that provides years of good service. Those mouthpieces aren’t as good as prime Chedevilles because the material isn’t as good and the bore is too conically shaped but they can often play as well or better than 60’s era Kaspars…in fact the material, blank-manufacturer and era from which those mouthpieces was made was the same as Cicero Kaspar!
This scenario can play out with many different mouthpieces in the junk market: Selmer, Melliphone, Bundy, Evette Schaeffer etc…
“Brad can do the same, of course, but I don't know how much time he has with his other projects.”
Thanks for the recommendation Chris. I remain active as a refacer as I find it is a great way to keep my refacing chops in shape and it gives my clientele an additional way to audition my perspective as a mouthpiece technician at a relatively low price.
“I've never sent him a true "blank" so I'm not sure what his policy is with that. The only scenario I could imagine would be if it's a zinner blank and he only sells his own zinner models (maybe). Or if the mouthpiece was not salvagable for some reason (He can repair most anything, I'm told).”
Thanks for the recommendation Nathan. I am happy to work on anything, including Zinner blanks or Zinner based mouthpieces by other makers. My goal is to simply aid in the client’s quest for a better playing experience.
“Do you know if Brad Behn will work on mouthpieces that are sent to him.
He did say that he would duplicate one of my mouthpieces using one of my own blanks, but am wondering if he will take blanks to do his own original work.”
I am happy to do your mouthpiece work. In the past I have copied mouthpieces for people using their own blanks (for instance a client had an old Gennusa that had been refaced by someone and wants that same facing and feel copied to another Gennusa that was provided). Or I have copied mouthpieces for people using my own mouthpieces as well. I can use either my Vintage Collection or Zinner blanks as the source mouthpiece for the project or in many cases I have a large collection (boxes of old Selmers, Riffaults, Chedevilles, Babbitt blanks, Chedeville blanks, and such) to use as blanks to copy a customers personal mouthpiece. Ultimately the deciding factors revolve around what the customer is seeking, price, which mouthpiece best matches the one in need of being copied, and availability.
“The makers e.g. Greg Smith, Brad Behn, Chris Hill, Ben Redwine, Richard Hawkins, Vytas Krass, Mike Lomax, Grabner, etc. all have been around the classic Chedeville mouthpieces for a long while and would probably evaluate mouthpieces for their potential as good players for a small price.”
My policy is to evaluate mouthpieces at no charge. Clients can email pictures or mail the mouthpiece in question and then we talk on the phone or communicate through email. After details about the mouthpiece’s vintage, potential, quality, material, etcetera at determined, the client then has sufficient information to either proceed with a refacing and customization or call the mouthpiece back.
Brad Behn
http://www.clarinetmouthpiece.com
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Author: redwine
Date: 2010-03-15 00:37
Hello,
You can't go wrong sending Brad a mouthpiece for refacing!
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-03-15 08:04
Ben, who really designed and made the Gennusa mouthpiece? Do you remember calling me several years ago asking how I made that first batch of MP's that you and Gennusa loved, but were not ever able to copy? This was when Gennusa sold his MP's to you. Are you really the maker of the Gennusa MP? The key word here is MAKER. What part of the MP do you MAKE? I'm totally confused.
One of my batches of limited mouthpieces had the name Gennusa and under that name was Ciaccia, named after my mother. About a 8 months ago one of these very limited mouthpieces sold for over $1000. I had nothing to do with this sale.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2010-03-15 08:27)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2010-03-16 17:01
I have seen Ben "make" finished and wonderful playing mouthpieces from a variety of different blanks - his own design molded mouthpiece blanks, various styles of Zinner molded blanks, and grossly raw blanks machined from rod rubber. In this respect IMO he is among the admired group of custom mouthpiece "makers" as well as Smith, Grabner, Hawkins, etc, etc.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
(Disclaimer - I sell Ben's molded acrylic mouthpiece and have collaborated with him on new mouthpiece designs for rod rubber machined mouthpieces)
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-03-16 17:32
Not the Gennusa, the mouthpiece in question.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2010-03-16 18:29
I do not know about the mouthpiece in question.
If one design, or blank and one "maker" produced the best mouthpiece for everyone there would be no need for various styles and configurations of blanks and different "makers" that produce mouthpieces which seem best by and for different players.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2010-03-17 10:37
Bob - I have never met you in my travels around the clarinet business but wish that I will so that you can hopefully impart to me some of your knowledge and experience (the best of all learning techniques). As I indicated I know nothing about the Gennusa history other than reading and hearing some of Iggy's work.
Like many companies today the name reflects recognition and "good will" of a company but is not necessarily owned, operated, or produces the exact products of the original namesake. Ben bought the Gennusa Company from Iggy and was tutored in mouthpiece making by him originally.
I do count as my friends many of the custom mouthpiece makers of today. I won't drop names but they are some of the most respected in the field. I too am involved in a project to recreate some classic mouthpieces and have spent a great deal of time listening and watching mouthpiece artisans (perhaps we can agree on the term "artisan") at work.
Brad Behn and Chris Hill are the only ones that I know that actually make mouthpiece blanks from scratch. Most "artisans" get blanks from blank makers - including Babbitt and Zinner - that are modified or custom versions of standard blanks or one can have a custom mold made by Babbitt or a couple other companies to make custom molded blanks.
From this point the art comes into play to change these blanks into finished mouthpieces. I have studied the parameters that are necessary to change and some of the interactions of these variables and can only say that modifying them with each other is an art form and not a mathematical modeling feat. Getting to the finished mouthpiece is accomplished in different ways by different "makers-artisans" and no two use exactly the same modifications of chamber size, bore, angle and size of side rails, table lay, etc., etc. But, they all get to an end point that satisfies some number of players to keep them in business as well as a thriving commercial market by manufacturers such as Vandoren. Many of these custom mouthpieces and even manufactured ones are played by the best players today who would have a choice of any mouthpiece - new, old, custom, or manufactured.
So, I am not saying that you do not make great mouthpieces just that any single mouthpiece is not the best for every player or clarinet hardware set up. I guess that I should not knock anything before trying it but with my playing skills it would not be a fair appraisal.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-03-17 20:05
If this were a network Food channel I would think I stumbled into "Throwdown with Bobby Flay" or Iron Chef.
Or maybe it is the movie channel, and High Noon is coming on.
cue Do not forsake me oh my darlin'
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: redwine
Date: 2010-03-18 00:00
Hello Bob,
It's great to hear from you. I had actually lost touch so it's great to get a nudge to get in touch with you again.
I do remember contacting you shortly after Leslie and I bought the mouthpiece business from Iggy. At that time, we were so new to the game and I was trying to glean as much knowledge from as many people as I could. As I understand it, you were very much involved with the early production of Iggy's mouthpieces. I, unfortunately, have never had the opportunity to inspect one, but have certainly heard magnificent things about them. From the information I received from you and in discussions with Iggy about his first productions, we have attempted to replicate those early mouthpieces with our "Retro". Are we successful? One could only tell by testing one of the early ones right next to the "Retro".
"Maker" is kind of a fuzzy term. The set up for producing molded mouthpiece blanks has a huge upfront cost, so having Babbitt produce them, as Iggy had them do, is the only logical step. Babbitt produces our blanks to Iggy's original tight specifications, then they come to me and I finish them, mainly the facings, but also the chamber and the bore, if a specific client requests that. We own the "core", which is really the void inside the mouthpiece. So, no other brand of mouthpiece has the same interior as the Gennusa, which is why the Gennusa has the sound quality and intonation that it has. Is it for everyone? Absolutely not, but there are many people that it is perfect for (me included!). I absolutely love the Babbitt rubber, thinking it has a superior sound quality to other blanks that I've tested, so I am happy to continue using Babbitt to produce our blanks.
So, to directly answer your question, I am the maker of the Gennusa "Excellente" mouthpiece, to the same extent that the other "makers" are of their mouthpieces (excepting Brad Behn with his vintage and Chris Hill with his Chadash/Hill mouthpieces, which are truly made from scratch, albeit, as I understand it, they do both have their blanks produced at a machine shop, so, in essence, they are finishing to the same extent that all other mouthpiece makers are).
As I understand it, Iggy designed his mouthpiece. Bob, you may have had some or a lot to do with that too, I simply don't know. I have never made any claim that I designed these mouthpieces, I am simply continuing to make them (or whatever you'd like to call it) in the same manner that Iggy did.
Thanks for the message and I do hope you'll call me, I'd love to be in touch again!
Ben
Ben Redwine, DMA
owner, RJ Music Group
Assistant Professor, The Catholic University of America
Selmer Paris artist
www.rjmusicgroup.com
www.redwinejazz.com
www.reedwizard.com
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-03-18 03:40
DR. ALLAN SEGAL, I agree, this has gotten way out of hand and I have to apologize to the fellow readers and to the clarinet board.
Ben, it is kind of you to respond. I will honor your request and call you tomorrow, after my morning recording session. When I call I hope you will understand that I cannot give out any advice with my past designs including the Gennusa MP, or your new Retro MP, because I'm still making assorted mouthpiece for the clarinet and the sax.
I will of course answer emails from the readers, but it is a frivolous issue to place anymore posts.
Bob
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