 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-12-05 17:04
For once on the BB I'll leave the inside of the clarinet (bore) alone and ask all the knowing folks about their thoughts on waxing, polishing, restoring, etc. the outside of the instrument. Some use bore oil on the outside as well as the inside of the clarinet others pooh-pooh this practice. I have gotten more than a few inquiries about what to use (wax - natural, synthetic polishes, or just a soft cloth) on the outside to renew or just spiff up the shine on the wood - hard rubber. What are your experiences and cautions about this??
Thanks,
The Doctor
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-12-05 17:23
I use apricot oil, very sparingly, and then seal it in with wax after it has absorbed into the wood. I feel that the wax helps to seal the oil, but I'm not speaking here with scientific evidence. However, as stated in an earlier post, I overhauled a Selmer BT clarinet for my personal use. I always put the corks on before any oil is applied to the wood so I can get better adhesion with the contact cement. I used the Dr. Slick cork grease that you so graciously sent me for trail and noticed that the overage seemed to bring the wood to a luster...so I applied it lighlt to the whole clarinet and buffed it in with a flannel strip. It shined it up very nicely and still looks great over two weeks later. I don't know how you or others feel about it, but it worked on this clarinet. I'm not going to make a practice out of it, but was curious, you know.
I put vitamin E in the apricot oil to help stabilize it. I would appreciate your reply on this issue. Are you working on a product for this currently?
For hard rubber I usually buff the bodies with a chamois buff and key buff from Ferree's. It's fast, safe and does a good job. I usually go over them with flannel strips to clean any excess buffing compound off.
Later,
John
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Author: Jeff Gegner
Date: 2000-12-05 17:39
Well I just did this last night. I have some oil for guitars to preserve the finish, obtainable at most music shops. It is basically stabilized lemon oil. I put a VERY SMALL amount on a rag and lightly applied to the exterior of the horn, being very careful not to get any on the pads. I used a q-tip to get into some of the tighter areas. After applying I immediately rubbed off the excess with dry cotton cloth and clean q-tips.. The horn looks beautiful with a nice soft glow to it. It's not shiny, just looks polished. I have used the same stuff on other wood articles. It does not turn rancid or gummy. After a long while it simply evaporates. I played today, the horn is no worse for the application, it still plays fine(as opposed to the player). As to waxing, I am not sure I would do that. Without the wax the horn is allowed to change humidity evenly inside and out. I am not sure but the wax might prevent the outside of the horn from adjusting evenly. This could induce some uneven preasures in the wood.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-12-05 18:16
John,
I often have more ideas than commercial sense but want to plumb the vast knowledge base evidenced on this BB to see what others think. To answer your question - yes, when using natural oils it is necessary to use antioxidants, emulsifiers (if more than one oil is combined) and sometimes stronger preservatives so that the oils do not oxidize, become rancid, separate, or soapanify from acid conditions created by skin acids or saliva. I believe it is critical to coat the insides of the tone holes (many cracks begin in these areas) and I use it myself on the wood in the areas of the register key and thumb rest which are often in contact with skin acids. Good thoughts about the moisture equilibration factors!
Thanks,
The Doctor
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Author: Anji
Date: 2000-12-05 20:39
I haven't done any long-term study, but Butcher's amber paste wax is delicate and easy to apply. I use a Q-tip and soft rag afterward.
The contact surfaces are not slippery, yet there's a nice satin finish.
I don't own a buffing wheel, so this helps.
I let my repair guru handle the bore.
This has really helped the appearance of my beater horns, the best players don't appear appreciably better.
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Author: Kim L.
Date: 2000-12-05 20:44
Due to the value of wooden clarinets, I would never oil my own clarinet. I am against it and would only have a technician do it because I could destroy my instrument either by it cracking, or by the pads being ruined.
I have made adjustments to my clarinet before, and they made the situation worse than before. That is why I encourage having any repair, including oiling, taken to a technician.
Just my two cents.
Kim L.
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-12-05 22:55
Jeff,
Couldn't you say the same for the bore of the instrument, ie. that with bore oil the wood would not be able to adjust to the varying humidity factors? I'm not sure that a natural wax such as beeswax could pose any harm. I've no scientific evidence, but have been doing this (oiling process) for many years and do not see any problems with my own or customers' instruments. I have yet to have a tenon get tight due to humidity or rings get so loose that they fall off, so something must be working. I do not make any attempt to prove or disprove my theories with scientific evidence because I am not a scientist or chemist by any means.
Anji,
I don't know what is in Butcher's amber paste wax. If it is an all natural wax I don't think that there would be any harm. I would hate for someone to Simonize their clarinet however.
John
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2000-12-05 23:01
Omar -
I hate slippery keys. For me, the duller the better. I always tell repair techs not to polish them. If I have a passage where I need to slide from one key to another (for example, the clarion sequence D# C# B D#, where you have to slide your right little finger from the first note to the second in order to have it available for the fourth note), I use the old trick of rubbing my finger on the side of my nose to pick up a little grease.
For the wood, I'm not bothered by dullness either. I've never oiled my R-13s, which date from the mid-70s. Francois Kloc says not to. So does Kalmen Opperman, who set the instruments up for me. As long as they play well, I don't want to tamper.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-12-06 01:51
Dear John and folks,
Scientist or not you have been doing the right thing IMHO - the natural oils - apricot among them, are somewhat hydrophilic (as oils go) and retain, and release, small amounts of water slowly from the wood - maintaining a certain moisture content ( this is a long story so I won't bore everyone with the specifics).
Anyway to the outside - some of the natural waxes (bees wax - soft, carnuba - hard) actually allow a certain moisture flux because they actually form a mottled surface with some pores as seen under extreme magnification and allow water vapor but not water droplets to enter and leave (like gore tex). If they formed a continuous barrier (they do in some cases if dissolved in petroleum solvents but not with organic dispersants), water would sheet (like some of the new polymer car waxes) rather than form droplets (there are surface tension aspects to droplet formation too but this is the jist of it). The trick of course is to find a carrier for natural waxes (if indeed you want to use any wax at all) that does not contain petroleum distillates that might dissolve the lacquer finish often used on wooden clarinets, but distribute the wax particles in the right way. Sounds like a whole new science project to conquer. Actually, a lot of this work has been done by the wood conservationists at the British Museum (with reams of data as the Museum likes to do) and they have a wax product (Renaissance Wax) that has a microcrystalline wax structure but unfortunately is dispersed in white mineral spirits that might dissolve some finishes on clarinets. It is also mightly expensive -about $14.00 U.S. / 2 oz (65 mL). This same microcrystalline wax used on priceless wood objects could be compounded with other organic dispersants for clarinets for a fraction of the "Brand Name" cost.
The Doctor
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Author: gRAHAM gOLDEN
Date: 2000-12-06 03:40
When I oil and polish my clarinet I just do what the warranty says. It says to use PURE linseed oil. It works really well on polishing the outside of the instrument and none of my clarinets have cracked yet.
Graham
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Author: Anji
Date: 2000-12-06 13:08
Doctor Omar, JB, et. al.;
Mebbe y'all try this stuff on a beater horn or scrap section first, no sense in making radical changes to proven methods.
Butcher's "Boston Polish" is what I use as a top finish on my furniture, particularly those that have been stripped and treated with Linseed oil.
Butcher's definitely uses some petroleum distillate as a solvent, turpentine and mineral spirits to suspend the Carnuba wax. It contains no abrasives, and dries in about 5 minutes. It has been the same formulation since 1880.
It leaves a slightly porous layer, such that multiple layers are recommended on dining surfaces, although it is not food grade.
Linseed oil is nice stuff, so long as it has been clarified (boiled) otherwise it has a prominent tendency to go rancid. I don't leave linseed oil as a top coat, it never sets up to a hard finish.
This stuff is available in Home Depot's flooring and wood care section. A lifetime supply (only one size, 454 grams/1 pound) is available for under $10.
A little goes a long way.
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Author: Dave Spiegelthal
Date: 2000-12-06 14:12
I'm with Anji --- I use the Butcher's wax (sold, as mentioned, at Home Depot) --- I believe it also says "bowling alley wax" on the tin. It is a paste wax suspended in turpentine --- does a nice job cleaning the wood, and certainly is good value for money.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-12-06 16:14
Don't get me wrong - I'm with you folks in using an economical alternative that has the right functional characteristics. Often times we use things without knowing the long term results and that is where knowing what (in a scientific and historical perspective) the results might be aids in decision making. A lot of the products sold or used on musical instruments are just plain bad for the instruments on a long term basis. That is why these discussions are useful because of the wealth of experience, and practical and scientific knowledge given in the responses. Young players and even some of us old folk learn a lot from these discussions and then we are free and knowledgable to make our own choices about what we use on our instruments. Many times we are "penny wise and pound foolish" by using cheap but improper remedies for our expensive instruments. We all blow huge amounts of money on reeds but will not spend a few extra cents for other quality products for our instruments. This is not to say that there are not economical quality products that also can be used on instruments that have other primary uses. Coming from a nautical background - if it says "for boats" it costs four times as much as it is worth - similarily if it says "for clarinets" it probably costs eight times as much.
Just one point of clarification - none of the products that I sell or recommend (there are many in development and testing) are not thoroughly researched, beta tested, and extensively field tested on actual instruments before going on the product list.
Happy polishing.
The Doctor
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Author: Jeff Gegner
Date: 2000-12-06 17:13
J.Butler. I really have no idea if the wax would prevent and moisture movement. We are talking about vapor, not liquid. It can probably get anywhere in the wood with oil, wax etc. As long as it is not sealed in with too heavy a layer. Wax is heavier than oil and closes off the pores of the wood more completely than oils so it might slow the movement down. Oil also displaces some of the moisture in the pores. Instead of water vapor coming and going from the pores, the oil which has a much lower vapor preasure remains in the pores. Bees wax is a fairly soft wax. When the horn is heated by playing I imagine some of the wax turns to oil stage and keeps the horn moist. It might be a real good solution to horn finish. I wonder if anyone has ever done a study on waxes and oils and their effects on wood. Anyone up for a government grant?!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-12-06 18:03
Jeff ...
The government probably would not give you a grant for such a practical application but --- Actually the British Museum, the Vatican Museum, and wood and fiber conservators at the Louvre, Metropolitan Museum (among others) have made many long term studies of wood preservation and all use rather similar formualtions of natural vegetable oils, emulsifiers, and antioxidants to preserve wood artifacts and then after thorugh drying they put on a single coat of wax (mostly the British Museum formula wax - depending on the surface finish). The temperature, humidity, and light surrounding the artifacts is controlled and periodically the wax is removed with a special cleaning solution and the wood retreated with the oil mixture and rewaxed.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2000-12-06 20:45
Omar -
18th century instrument makers, working in boxwood (which is hard but porous compared to grenadilla) used raw linseed oil. Box is unusual, because it warps severely and in an oval pattern. Old boxwood instruments are practically sickle-shaped, and the bores are out-of-round, which is why they're so hard to copy. I have a 20 year old boxwood 1-keyed flute that is beginning to get curved, even though the bore is sealed with epoxy.
I had a long talk a few years ago with Phil Levin, who is one of the best makers of 18th century instrument copies. (His baroque bassoons are the choice of most players.) He said that only raw linseed oil should be used in bores. First, it's the historical material, and second, it penetrates the wood and then polymerizes, stabilizing the wood. Boiled linseed oil does not penetrate or polymerize and builds up on the surface, changing the bore size.
There's a well known story about Hans Moenig -- whenever someone asked him whether to oil the bore, he would pull a chunk of grenadilla out of a bucket of oil (where it had been for the previous 50 years), hand the inquirer a sharp knife and tell him to cut off the thinnest possible shaving. Invariably, no oil at all had penetrated even slightly.
On any wood less dense than grenadilla, oiling may make a difference. On grenadilla, no.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-12-07 00:12
Ken...
Thanks for the wonderful historical information. I beg to differ with both your bassoon friend, and (God forbid) Hans Moenig in differing ways. It is true that raw linseed oil was the original polyurathane and over time will cross link to form polymers in the surface of the wood which will clog the pores and channels of the wood and essentially waterproof it but this is not necessarily good since a certain moisture content is necessary for the proper resonance of the wood. If waterproofing and stabilizing the wood were the issue then manufacturers of clarinets would soak their wood in linseed oil - which they do not. The actual trick is to maintain a moisture balance throughout the wood - if the inside soaks up water and the outside is dry -- or the inside is waterproofed and the outside is exposed to high humidity there is an imbalance and this can lead to the tendency to crack in susceptible instruments (as I have eluded to before - some will never crack, some will always crack and some subjected to insults may crack).
Hans Moenig just did not have the right oil (bite my tongue for saying this) - I have access to a dimond blade microtome (machine that makes thin slices of a sample for microscopic analysis) and will cut slices of only a few microns (10 minus 6th. inch thick). Grenadilla wood treated with the right mixture of oil will absorb the oil through the natural pores and channels in the wood and this will then diffuse throughout the wood. I have photomicrographs of grenadilla wood treated with fluorescently labeled oil which show that the oil has permeated the structure of the wood (these are 1 cm thick slices of wood) when imaged with a laser scanning microscope. Just a cursory observation of my oil when wiped on the surface (I use it on the outside as well as the bore) of the wood will show that the oil is almost completely absorbed into the wood if left to stand overnight (it will not evaporate since there are no solvents in the oil mixture).
Here's a deal -- send me your address (and any other of the BB readers who are doubters can do the same) through the contact button on my web site (on the sponsors page) and I'll send you a sample of the oil gratis (just indicate that you want a free sample). If your are meek paint it with a Q-tip on a portion of the inside of the bell of your horn, let it stand overnight and see for yourself that it almost completely soaks into the wood (if the wood is not lacquered or otherwise sealed with some substance). If you are really brave put a little in the bore and note that it is entirely absorbed. I can talk (write) until "blue in the face" and not convince some people - they must try it for themselves (I am probably more stubborn than most and this would be the only way to convince me). I probably will not change any opinions about the general use of bore oil but only that this is a product that will soak into the wood - I feel that it protects the wood and is a necessary care product for woodwind instruments. This decision is ultimately up to the user.
P.S. I've already cleared this give away with the web boss.
Thanks for the great discussion.
The Doctor
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-12-07 00:34
.....And thank you good Doctor. This issue has been debated for years and will probably be debated for several more. I too must add that my oil does absorb into the wood as you describe. I DO NOT oil my clarinets except during overhauls. I DO NOT oil my customers' clarinets except during overhauls. My own instruments I tear down and oil once per year, but then again I'm a repair tech and that isn't a problem for me. Yes, I would like to try your oil, but I'm not so "tight" as to not pay for the opportunity.
John
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Author: Ken Rasmussen
Date: 2000-12-07 01:08
Hmmm. Without giving it a thought, I presumed that oiling the exterior of the instrument made good sense, since it would tend to keep the wood from drying and checking. I've always done it. It hasn't caused any problem that I'm aware of, though the appearance after the oil has been absorbed is dull, not shiny. Is there any compelling reason NOT to use bore oil outside as well as inside the bore? I'm aware of the arguments against oiling the bore, and remain unconvinced by those arguments. My question is this: If one has taken the position, rightly or wrongly, that bore oil is good for the bore, is there any other argument against doing the exterior of the instrument?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-12-07 01:39
Ken and all...
Thanks for the absorbing words. I would advocate both inside and out but since I am having such a hard time convincing people to do the insides I have not even broached using it both places. It is funny that we always get back to this old discussion of oiling the bore. In truth I would advocate the procedure that the museums take (as posted earlier) to oil the wood and then put on a coat of wax and buff it to a shine and then periodically remove the wax (I'll give a safe solution and way to do this in another post or maybe just make up a kit for the whole thing) and repeat the process. Wax on - Wax off.
The Doctor
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Author: beejay
Date: 2000-12-08 13:52
I put two,maybe three,drops of almond oil on a lint-free cloth and polish the outside of my Buffet RC every few weeks or so. The inside bore I don't touch at all. It never occurred to me that I should be using antioxydants, stabilizers etc? Am I doing something wrong?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-12-08 20:38
Beejay...
Natural oils - such as almond oil (most of the almond oils on the market are for cooking and have many of the useful - for wood preservation purposes - elements processed out of them) - can undergo oxidation which causes a characteristic "rancid" odor and the oxidized oils can be bad for the wood. Certain of the antioxidants also are bacteriostatic and inhibit the growth of bacteria and mold in oils as well as preventing oxidation. Oils in wood probably are not a very good place for bacteria to grow unless the humidity becomes high and then bacteria and molds can grow. A good object lesson may be the moldy corks that you find on clarinets stored for a long time in high humidity situations. Do not be "penny wise and pound foolish" and use a product that is thouroughly researched for the job - we are only talking pennies here for an instrument that costs thousands.
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Author: Todd H.
Date: 2000-12-09 00:29
I have been using mineral bore oil wiped on the inside and the outside of my clarinets; and yellow paste wax inside and out as an annual application. The oil seems to clean the instruments so I try to wipe it off instead of letting it all soak in. The wax gives a satin finish that sheds dust easily. When everything is dry and the wax has been buffed the mechanism is reinstalled and oiled. My thinking is that the moisture barrier, of whatever coating is applied, should be present in equal thickness on both sides of the wood. No corks have come loose yet, but I expect that the bore oil will eventually get to the glue holding them and cause it to come loose.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2000-12-09 16:32
Todd and all ....
If bore oil is applied sparingly - only to the bore, then it should have no effect (I am talking natural oils and not petroleum based oils) on the glue holding on the corks -my cork treatment has the same oils in it - cork is wood too . I have several (I won't give the exact number because my wife may read this) clarinets that have been oiled for more than five years each (this is the length of time that I have been back playing the clarinet) with no effect on loosening the cork holding glue or damaging the pads. I would not use mineral oil myself on wood but this is a choice that you must make. Not to sound overly "preacy" about this bore oiling routine I'll institiute another acronym - WWFY - whatever works for you - and use it often because this bore oiling controversy continues to rage on-and-on.
The Doctor
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