 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2010-02-19 13:41
Here's the deal.
My horn has something going on with it that is driving me to drink and I'm at my wits end trying to figure out what's going on.
The resistance of the horn is perfect. It blows freely, sounds great, except for the b natural and c natural above the break. For those two notes it's like someone has shoved a sock in the bell of my horn.
When this first started happening I assumed that it was a simple problem, a pad not seating or the bridge key out of adjustment or I just was unhappy with the adjustment of the keys. Over the last year I have visited with my repairman (who is a reputable guy who does work for the players in a major symphony) at least 10 times trying to get this straightened out. He'll tinker and it's a little better but I'm never really satisfied and any improvement seems to be temporary at best.
I've had professional players who I trust implicitly play my horn and their reactions have been the same as mine, "the bridge key must be out of adjustment", "I think a pad must not be seating correctly", "nice horn, what's wrong with those two notes?".
I also played their horns just to make sure that it's not something that I'm doing physically with my embrochure or hands. Nope. I play their horns and I think, "yeah, that's the way it's supposed to feel".
The horn is a very nice 1974 R-13 B-flat. I'm playing a Hawkins Classic mouthpiece with a Chadash aftermarket barrel.
Any suggestions as to what might be at the root of this problem?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-19 13:56
One would assume that there is some form of problem the "C#" pad (second lowest), either too little spring tension (this should be held down somewhat firmly) or a pad that has developed a crack right along where it seats (you'd need to inspect the pad off the horn).
Of course it could be (not likely, but possible) something really weird.
Try removing the last four pads, cover the holes with plastic tape (duck tape even) and do a suction/blow test for seal. Keep this up adding one pad at a time going down, checking in between. If you get a leak in there somewhere even with the tape over the holes, there is the possibility that a hole underneath a post was countersunk too low and actually protrudes to the bore.
I found one of these on the upper joint of an R13 Greenline once. Had the WHOLE top joint taped, and for the sake of having a base line, I did the suction test this way........knowing there should be NO PROBLEM. To my amazement the damn thing was leaking (again, ALL TAPE, NO PADS!!) That is when I found the hole that shouldn't be.
This is easy to fix with some sawdust and super glue (just a bit mind you) before screwing the post back into place.
Again
This is a VERY UNUSUAL problem and it is most likely not your problem .....just throwing it out there.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-02-19 13:59
On some older clarinets, you can see the wood starting to wear away at the bottom end of the upper joint (where it goes into the lower joint). When the two joints are fitted together, there is a slight wobble, and this can create problems with a lot of notes.
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2010-02-19 14:12
Thanks Paul.
I've had the four bottom pads off and reseated, replaced, remixed, refined and regurgitated. That doesn't appear to be the problem unless my repair guy is an incompetent dunce and I'm operating from the position that he isn't.
Now, the idea of a post protruding into the bore is really frightening. Would it be visible when shining a light into the lower joint?
Oh, the horn fits together fine. There is no wear on the tenons so there isn't any wobbling going on.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-02-19 15:16
TonkaToy -
You've gone at it the right way, having a repairman check all four of the big pads and having other players confirm the problem.
Do you have an A clarinet? If so, could you possibly have switched bells? Bb and A bells are not the same, and the bore diameter at the "choke point" at the top end of the bell is larger on the A bell than it is on the Bb.
On an instrument from 1974, it's possible that one of the hole rims has a nick, or the rim has warped into a potato-chip shape, or the wood grain around the rim has opened up. Ask your repairman whether he checked the rims for flatness and filled the wood grain.
Look down and up the lower joint for wood grain that has opened up in the bore. Examine the outside under a bright light for open grain. Even a tiny leak through the wood will increase the resistance.
You can sometimes improve response by repositioning the bell. Start with the trademark to the front and turn it maybe 20 degrees at a time, checking for resonance and resistance. On my R13s, which are from 1972 and 1974, I've found that there's a "sweet spot" for each bell (and, even more, for each barrel).
You might also go to one of the barrel makers who are sponsors here. A barrel matched to your particular mouthpiece, instrument and blowing style can make a big improvement.
Guy Chadash makes his own line of clarinets based on the original R13 design and also does sophisticated setups and repairs. If your bore has shrunk, he has reamers that will restore the original shape. He can also undercut tone holes to change tuning and response. Morrie Backun does the same kind of work.
Good luck.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-19 15:24
Find the leak first.
If you are not comfortable with the tape idea, find someone who is.
Once you find the area of the leak, it will be easier to see it from the inside. The problem with looking into the bore is that you have "lateral" line of sight and a smoothed over hole could be very hard to see. I did see mine once I knew where to look (mine was one of the "A" key posts of the top joint).
.................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2010-02-19 17:13)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-02-19 15:47
Another thing to consider in an instrument that old is that someone in its history tried to tweak the sound or intonation of those long notes by trying to ream either the bell or (worse, if it didn't succeed) the end of the bottom section where the bell attaches. Take a look and see if there is any evidence of cutting (an area of dullness or roughness) along the inside of the bell - especially near the socket end - or the bottom tenon of the lower joint.
I only suggest this because I saw a lot of players back in those days try to solve problems they felt were inherent in the instrument's design by applying their own tweaks. And the ones that were unsuccessful ended up being sold to other players, often students, who didn't have the experience to know there was anything wrong.
Given that the pads are seating properly, a different bell might clear up the B and maybe would improve the C as well.
Just a thought.
Karl
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2010-02-19 15:54
Ken, thanks for the input.
The last time I was with my repairman he did check the tone holes for any irregularities and everything looked fine. No chips, nicks or warping.
I'm now intrigued by the idea of the bore having become irregular and perhaps needing to be reamed or there being grain that has opened up in the bore. Thinking about it, the horn is due for a complete overhaul and soaking in oil. The problem with the resistance didn't show up until about a year after the last time the joints were soaked. Maybe the horn is drying out a bit and fissures in the grain are more pronounced now.
I'm positive I don't have my A bell on my B-flat.
Karl, I bought the horn new and I've done nothing to it other than regular servicing and repairs.
The same as if it were a medical problem I've gotten a second and third opinion from other reputable repair people.
Post Edited (2010-02-19 16:00)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2010-02-20 03:52
Hi Tom,
Knowing your repair tech, I would expect that he has been VERY thorough and probably would have caught any of the common problems. I wonder though, what happens when you try the suck and blow tests on the lower joint?
Also, FWIW, I'm hearing a lot of good things about the repair tech at Saxquest (who, as you may know, now have the Buffet distributorship in St. Louis). I'd suggest having them take a look at your problem. Also, just for grins, you might try putting a different lower joint on your upper joint to see what happens. It will probably just confirm that the problem is in the lower joint, but you never know.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-02-20 04:06
If you haven't already done this I'd get someone to hold the pads on the bottom closed while you play those notes. Have them hold the Eb and F# pads closed. You could be blowing those open when playing. If that doesn't do it try holding the B natural key closed. Those are the only three that are held closed with springs on the bottom joint.
Just a thought.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-02-20 04:14
It happens sometimes that the instrument can seal perfectly but the notes at the end of the tube are very difficult to produce or do not respond easily. This could be the player or the instruments acoustics.
This is often a problem with the reed or mouthpiece or the way the player uses air.
As you say that you play their clarinet and there is no problem, I assume that it really has something to do with the horn.
Try this, pull the bell out about 1/8 inch. That should clear things up. Buffets generally have a very stuffy bell design and pulling out like this can help it.
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