 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tunerman
Date: 2010-01-31 15:32
Metal verses cloth or leather etc. What do artist use. How about you?
Post Edited (2010-01-31 15:33)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-31 16:59
Artists use all types. Everyone has their own opinion of what's best. I like the Rovners on all my clarinets. I feel I get a warmer, fuller tone with using them and less highs which I prefer. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2010-01-31 23:21
Hi tunerman, there have been often lengthy discussions of ligs, so I suggest you Search [above] for our earlier "talks". I agree with Ed's thots on sound quality, and find my "dark" via glass mp and Gigliotti lig, so to me its a trial and error experimentation for each of us. Luck, Dpn
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-02-01 01:16
I personally prefer metal ligatures, and some ligatures that are fabric but have metal contacting the reed.
I feel that darkness and depth of sound can be obtained through embouchure and air support. The "bright"-ness of metal ligatures to me provides clarity and response that is required for most playing.
As noted above, experiences vary greatly from person to person.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-02-01 14:13
Ligatures are to a clarinet player as wives are to a Sheik.
Bob Draznik
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-02-01 17:37
I admit to being confused and rather sceptical when people talk about the difference between rovner, metal and plastic ligatures.
For concerts I use a metal ligature because I think it looks nicer, but often a rovner at home. To youngsters starting the clarinet, I give a rovner. I have a Bonade because the idea of the ligature touching as little as possible of the reed makes sense to me. You allow more of the reed to vibrate.
I can see that the way the reed is held on the MP may affect the sound, also exactly how tight is is and of course, the position of the reed on the MP, but if you have a collection of ligatures made of different material, but which all hold the reed on in more or less the same way, how exactly does the material affect the sound?
Steve
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-02-01 18:57
The truth is you'll never be sure how the material affects the sound because, apart from being made of different materials, every ligature is designed differently as well. So differences in the tendencies of one ligature compared to another may be caused by the material or they may be caused by the way in which the material, whatever it is, contacts and holds the reed. Best bet is to forget what a ligature is made of and listen to what you produce when using each one.
Karl
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Author: Ryan25
Date: 2010-02-01 19:08
There are a lot of Pros that use Rovners, Bg's and the like and are happy with the setup.
I never let my students play Rovner ligatures and every single one that I switched to a Bonade, Vandoren or the like has had improved tone, articulation, interval connection, and reed performance. Maybe it is the design or maybe players need to be more advanced before they can realize the potential of a Rovner style ligature?
In general, I don't like them because most don't hold the reed secure to the mouthpiece. The ones that do hold it secure seem to dampen the vibration of the reed. For young students who tend to play soft with a small sound, this is the last piece of equipment they should be using in my opinion. Lots of teachers have their students use them and are successful so to each their own. I am not a fan of these for myself or my students.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2010-02-01 19:56
IMHO:
Call or email:
CARL JACKSON, he's in NYC right now, but is always be available by cell or email.
He makes a hand-made leather lig with specifically placed holes to make it work for you. It looks a little like the Rovner lig, but it's lighter and more responsive...and also has a single screw. He'll work with you on the design and your individual needs. Carl is very accessible, friendly & a terrific clarinet player. Check him out on Google, he played in Utah.
Carl's email: allpointligatures@yahoo.com
Cell phone: 1-801-824-6267
Many of us here in NYC are using Carl's great ligs on all our clarinets & saxophones. So give them a try!
Good luck.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
Post Edited (2010-02-01 20:00)
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Author: TPeterson
Date: 2010-02-01 23:40
I've been using a BG super revelation for years because for me it seemed to offer the darker sound of a Rovner with the response of a Bonade.
Tim Peterson
Band Director & Clarinetist
Ionia, MI
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-02-02 00:17
I personally find that a more tightly screwed Rovner is useful for a more 'reliable' response going to Altissimo on my part. Bonade wise, I have to keep her fairly loose to achieve the same kind of resistance. That's what I've observed with my Legere reeds.
Post Edited (2010-02-02 00:21)
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Author: Woop Woop
Date: 2010-02-02 00:20
I use a BG super revelation. Leather with gold contact with reed. I like the dark warm sound. I have tried a few Rovner and Vandoren but still I prefer the BG.
Woop Woop
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Author: Jkelly32562
Date: 2010-02-02 02:16
I like the H lig that Rico has out......
I had a college prof simply take a piece of string and wrap it around the reed and mouthpiece. I dont even think it was a special kind of string. As I recall, a shoe string worked for him in a pinch. And he always had a great sound.
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Author: clarient55
Date: 2010-02-02 10:59
Hey all...
I like a lig that does the following two things well...
1) Does not get in the way of music making and
2) Allows me to switch the mouthpiece from one clarinet to the other without the whole setup coming off.
That being said... I've used the same Rovner Dark for years ~ and I like it a lot.
One day, being totally frustrated with the double screw lig I had, I walked into a local music store and there it was... I have been playing on it ever since!
Mark...
The guy with the Ridenour matched set
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-02 12:43
The non-metal ligatures tend to damp the overtones and gives you a "less bright" sound. A good compromise are the leather ligatures with the inserts. I prefer the Vandoren Leather with the metal "Bonade" insert the best of this design.
Of course the Rovner Light is one of the best ligatures bar none. It doesn't damp to nearly the degree of the Rovner Dark, it's easy to use (one screw), never bends (like metal) and is pretty darn cheap (around $20 US dollars).
I have also used string (blattschnur) but it gives you exactly what you have in a reed. So if the reed is warped, you cannot tighten to correction.
Also with string there is damping and the reeds will play a bit softer in strength.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-02-02 13:23
"In general, I don't like them because most don't hold the reed secure to the mouthpiece."
I've used Rovners and never experienced that.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2010-02-02 13:37
Pure platinum is the only way to go.
Unfortunately, it requires inserts of tempered, hand-hammered, Seville steel ( circa pre-1597) placed along to reed curvature to maximize the effectiveness. A tensioning gage is also placed over the reed to ensure consistency when tightening.
Oh, and a torque wrench is useful to prevent overly tightening the titanium screws.
Inserts (a la Bonade) can also be made of thinly shaved ferrous meteorite fragments, sterilized to prevent bacterial growth-- although I am more partial to the Seville steel...just a matter of preference.
Anyone making an Allusion to scrith and unobtainium shall immediately fall upon a sword of the aforementioned Seville steel.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: beejay
Date: 2010-02-02 21:34
Platinum? I believe you pay extra if they are made when the moon is full. Gives a much darker sound.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-02-03 11:59
-- "Anyone making an Allusion to scrith and unobtainium shall immediately fall upon a sword of the aforementioned Seville steel." --
I heard that ligatures made of unobtainium tend to get blown out quite fast.
Bonades work much better on clarinets with silver plating only on the upper keys and with the barrel rotated 90' to the right.
But we all knew that anyway, right?
Steve
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2010-02-03 12:09
After years of reading multiple posts about ligatures....metal, plastic, fabric, all shapes and sizes....I have decided to discard my Bonade, my Rovner and my Vandoren leather ligature with metal insert.
Instead, I have hired a very patient man, a retired butler, to hold the reed in place for me while I play.
As long as he trims his fingernails, this seems to work fine. I get a dark, rich focused tone, play faster and read better than ever before.
The cost is negligible, given the ever-increasing price of unobtainium.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-03 13:10
Dampening out the high overtones is what I like about the Rovners. I don't like a bright tone, I much prefer a warmer tone. I have also never had a problem with the ligatures slipping. One thing about it is that you can make the screw tight if you wish and it won't "choke" off the reed. There's a reason the Rovner has been one of the most copied designs today and he makes several models, with or without metal inserts. One of my students played the ligature that John Moses suggested, I wasn't crazy about it personally, I found it a bit restricting, but that's just for me. Each to their own. ESP
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-02-03 19:33
BobD wrote:
<<"In general, I don't like them because most don't hold the reed secure to the mouthpiece."
I've used Rovners and never experienced that.>>
I have, but only on a really old Rovner where the threads on the screw had worn to the point that you couldn't tighten it up all the way. Buying a new one immediately fixed that problem (you can also buy just the screw direct from Rovner, if you want, if I remember correctly).
I use my Rovner for orchestral playing where I have to move the mouthpiece (reed, ligature, and all) back and forth between the A clarinet and Bb in the middle of pieces. As long as the mouthpiece cork is greased like it's supposed to be, I have no problems.
I use the Mark III and have no problems with overdamping (and before that I used the Dark and had no problems, either). I personally think the sound you get with it has as much or more to do with you as it does with the ligature itself.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-03 19:52
mrn, I agree with your statement about your tone having to do more with you than the ligature. A ligature will give you a little of this or that but the basic sound has to be there already via you, your mouthpiece and your reed. The ligature can help dampen or empathize some highs or lows and can certainly allow a reed to feel freer or more restrictive so I believe that the player will notice much more difference from one ligature to another but the listener will only notice a very slight difference, if at all, in most cases. But if a ligature makes you feel more comfortable and you hear or feel even a slight difference than you have an easier time with choosing and preparing your reeds as well as gaining some flexibility in tuning, articulating and control. The more comfortable you are the better you can play. I certainly notice a big difference in the focus of my tone as well as my altissimo register and my lowest register between certain ligatures. With some there are very subtle differences and with others there are very substantial differences in every aspect of my playing. ESP
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-02-03 20:25
Last week I got together with a former teacher of mine to do work on mouthpieces. During the refacing session, we were talking about ligatures, I told him I was using a Bonade which I had lined the rails with thin cork. I tried the mouthpiece he was refacing with my corked up Bonade. He then had me do it with the other Bonade I brought, we both immediately noticed a difference. He then had me try a Bonade he had just received which someone had gold plated. Tried that, we both said "wow". No doubt it was different, more resonant, better sound, and better feel. I am not convinced that it was the gold plating- I have tried many silver and nickel Bonades that sounded different from one another. But I do know that there is a difference between ligatures, even the same models. Will most people notice the difference? probably not, but then again, most would not notice the difference between an open throat A, and an A using resonance fingerings. I use resonance fingerings, because it sounds better, most wont notice it, but some will, and I will.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-02-04 17:01
Okay, thanks. Perhaps I misunderstood earlier posts.
So to summarise... different ligatures DO make a difference and this is due to HOW they hold the reed onto the MP - ie the contact points - and how tightly they hold it.
The material of which the ligature is made makes no difference and is coincidental. i.e. the Rovners hold the reed on using certain contact points so get a reputation for a certain sound because of that. Likewise Bonades, Luybens etc hold the reed on slightly differently.
But the material itself is not important.
If anybody thinks that the material does make a difference, can you say why?
Steve
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-02-04 18:46
Steve,
I believe the material does make a difference because of the way it interacts with the vibrating reed. If the ligature is tight the vibrations will be cut off and t loose the vibrations fuller. You certainly notice the difference in your mouth, well at least I do.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-02-04 19:05
-- "I believe the material does make a difference because of the way it interacts with the vibrating reed. If the ligature is tight the vibrations will be cut off and t loose the vibrations fuller. You certainly notice the difference in your mouth, well at least I do." --
Aha, I think I know what you're getting at. A metal or leather ligature may contact the reed at exactly the same place and with the same amount of surface area, but the metal is less flexible than the leather, so you'll notice a difference.
Therefore, can we say that a leather ligature fastened very tightly will be the same as a metal ligature fastened more loosely?
Steve
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-02-04 20:41
An important but often overlooked aspect of ligatures is their placement on the mouthpiece.
A frequent criticism of Rovner ligatures is that it dampens some of the upper partials and does not permit the reed vibrate fully.
In the case of Rovner ligatures, placing the ligature lower on the reed/mouthpiece will significantly free up the reed and add more of the upper partials.
Whenever one of my students complains of a small, restricted sound or lack or color/response, they invariably have their ligature placed too high on the mouthpiece.
...GBK
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2010-02-04 21:09
Even if the Rovner ligature is placed a lower, I still feel the sound is dampened and lacking in response a little when compared to my Bonade inverted (center cut-out). I've always felt that it was harder to articulate fast on my Rovner Dark.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-02-04 22:18
Steve wrote:
"Therefore, can we say that a leather ligature fastened very tightly will be the same as a metal ligature fastened more loosely?"
No I don't think so because you can't discount string ligatures, wooden ligatures or any ligature one might choose.
GBK makes a very good point about where the ligature actually sits on the mouthpiece and reed.
Ultimately you don't want to dampen the vibrating reed as this will dampen the harmonics in the sound and then essentially the colours that one might be able to produce and indeed the varieties of sound that can be achieved.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-02-05 13:49
Screw threads and metal to metal contact points should be lubricated on all ligatures.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-05 14:56
I do believe that the material makes a big difference because there's more to the sound and feel than just the reed vibrating. It also matters what the reed is vibrating against, and that is the ligature material. I like the Rovners because they do dampen the tone, that's what I like and I project just fine.
A few years ago Rovner experimented with a white leather, it is a softer material then his black ones. He sent them to several of us to try, both clarinet and sax, and give our opinion and most players told him that they found after a while the leather stretched so he did not put it into production. I think most of them made it to tight because I didn't have that problem. I didn't like the tone of the regular clarinet ligature though, I found it made my tone too dull, too much dampening. But, I loved the one he made me for bass clarinet and I've been using it for two years now. It's the same design as the one I was using with the black material just a warmer tone. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-02-05 16:23
-- " I like the Rovners because they do dampen the tone, that's what I like and I project just fine. " --
I'm sure you're right and I have no doubt that different ligatures do affect the sound.
But what I keep trying to explore is whether this is due to the way that they touch the reed, or because of the material.
My rovner presses down on the reed along the centre. The Bonade has two small points (if I remember rightly) that press down on each side of the centre. My plastic Luyben touches in another place.
For me, THIS is the reason why the reed behaves differently. The actual material of the ligature makes no difference.
What I'm saying is that if you remove the part of the rovner that touches the reed and stick it on a metal ligature, you'd have the same effect.
But please don't do this! ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Steve
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-02-05 17:03
I have a Vandoren Leather ligature with a velcro fastener for (3) separate "plates." The first "plate" is soft leather which dampens the sound noticably. The second "plate" is made of a firmer leather and dampens the sound less so. The third "plate" is made of metal (designed to hold the reed precisely the way a Bonade does) and provides the most robust sound, HOWEVER it is not as strident as my Ishimora which is all metal and once again designed like a Bonade.
With any of these ligatures placing the ligature higher or lower can effect the way a particular reed resonds (and placement may be necessary to get some reeds to even play well at all), HOWEVER their individiual playing characteristics still remain THE SAME.
If you don't believe me, buy a Vandoren Leather (but get the Leather Cap too because they're just really cool).
................Paul Aviles
I must add to this to bring the "damping" notion more into focus that I also have been known to utilize a Vandoren Optimum when I just want to jam the reed down. With the metal plate (that looks like a Bonade) I get good results yet find the sound more on the "dampened" side. I believe that we can more easily "see" what's going on if we think of the entire mouthpiece setup as the sound source. The more freely the entire system is allowed to vibrate, the more overtone rich the sound will be, but if we put some damping material around the mouthpiece/reed system the less it will vibrate. So the heavy metal and large heavy screw mechanism of the heavy Optimum acts more like a leather ligature in that it prevents the system from vibrating freely.
.........just a thought.
Post Edited (2010-02-05 17:25)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-05 17:29
Steve, I've already mentioned that using the White leather that Rovner made me as an experiment in the same design as the one I was already using with the black leather material made a big difference. Of course the material of the ligature makes a difference, that's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. The Rovner Eddie Daniel model, which I used for many years, comes with three inserts and each one effects the way the reed vibrates. It's the combination of material, pressure point, thickness etc. that makes a ligature do what it does. It all matters and if you don't want to believe that then that's up to you. ESP
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-02-06 12:47
-- "It all matters and if you don't want to believe that then that's up to you. ESP" --
Ed, I do not doubt for one second the difference you describe and apologies if I ever gave the impression that I did.
I was merely attempting to understand how, specifically, the material itself - rather than contact points, position on reed etc - contributes to the changes observed.
I guess that's the curse of a scientific background - always asking questions and never being satisfied with the answers.
Regards,
Steve
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-02-06 13:08
Regardless of what Lig you use , your lower lip must be a significant damping factor.......and if you use double lip.....!!
Bob Draznik
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-02-06 14:59
I use a Rovner, but found that sometimes the reed wasn't entirely stable on the table and could pivot out of line. I glued a couple of pieces of rubber from a big rubber band to support the top and bottom end of the clamped area and this fixed the problem. The Rovner plays better in the top end of the clarion register than any of my metal ligatures.
Tony F.
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Author: CK
Date: 2010-02-07 06:05
I prefer the "Spriggs" Ligature is the best For great response and articulation.
The next brst one for me i sthe Bonade Lig with cut out made and spld
by Phil Muncy and Muncy Winds
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-02-08 15:16
I've just received a wooded ligature from the makers in Greece Paraschos.
Once I've had chance to play it fully this week I'll post a little review and try and upload a sound bite comparing a few different ligatures with it, such as a Rovner and Vandoren Klassik. Perhaps a Bay gold also.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2010-02-08 18:56
I'll be looking forward to the listening to the differences between the ligatures Peter.
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