 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-01 01:51
Hi,
I currently own a Bb clarinet. However, I'm hoping to get an Eb Alto sax at some point in the future. How much is my experience with the Bb Clarinet going to carry over to the Eb sax?
Will the fingerings still be pretty similar? Or will this feel like a whole new instrument?
Also, what are the reeds and mouthpieces like. Is there much difference between the reeds of a clarinet and sax? Are the reeds interchangeable?
Will the embrochure be much different for the sax?
Thanks in advance to all that respond.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: claritoot26
Date: 2010-02-01 02:36
Sax is fairly simple to pick up after knowing the clarinet. The fingerings in the upper register of the clarinet are mostly the same as on sax. The sax register key is an octave key rather than a twelfth key, so the fingerings in both registers are the same, except for the very lowest and the very highest notes. As far as embouchure goes, the mouthpiece is a little wider and longer, so you need a bit more mouthpiece in the mouth than on clarinet. The alto sax reed is somewhat wider, so the reeds are not interchangeable. Also, I find it better to use a bit more bottom lip over the teeth for saxophone, especially for the very low notes. Air support is pretty similar on both, but you'll find the low notes more resistant on sax, because the air has to go around the bend to the bell. The high notes come out pretty easy...I suppose this is kind of the opposite feeling on clarinet (low=easy, high=harder). Consult a fingering chart and an instructor for more information, or check out the sax bulletin board.
Lori
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-01 02:49
Thanks for the quick reply. Your information is very encouraging and quite helpful.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2010-02-01 02:54
A couple of the middle fingerings are different too, like third line B and third space C, but it's really easy to adjust. IMO you'll also need to relax the embouchure quite a bit to be flexible on sax for the lowest notes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-01 03:36
Thanks Katrina,
For me, the sax is more of a pipe dream right now. But I have the clarinet in hand so I guess I may as well pratice with this until I can get the sax. That might be a full year away.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-01 06:32
Ok, my pipe dream might come true a lot quicker than I thought. Like maybe by the end of this week!
What about playing the Bb stuff on the Eb Sax? Is it just a matter of transposing the score? Can I still use those Bb books and play along with the CDs? All I need to do is transpose the score into Eb? Is that right?
I have a sheet music program that will do that for me automatically. So that's not problem if that's all that's required.
I guess what I'm asking is this,... There's no inherent problem with playing a Bb clarinet and an Eb alto saxophone together in a session as long as they both have properly transposed score right? They'll just be playing different fingers for the same licks or riffs right?
I was originally thinking of getting a tenor sax (mostly because it's already in Bb), but I like the smaller size of the alto sax. So if the Eb isn't going to be a problem I'd rather go with the smaller instrument.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2010-02-01 14:09
I think the usual sequence is a Sax player "picks up" clarinet as a "doubler" and initially they have a problem since the sax embo is so much looser. Clarinet players "pick up" sax for more volume. I love my Yamaha Alto. BB member "Hank" may pop up any minute now for comment as he is a Pro and gives me occasional lessons.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: TianL
Date: 2010-02-01 14:51
alto sax is not very hard to pick up. however, imo it is not good to play both especially at a younger age. many things can be confusing once you are trying to practice two at the same time. At least that was true for me.. my embouchure was really getting confused. i eventually put my sml alto down for that reason.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-01 17:57
Well, I'm glad I found this forum because I'm learning a lot, not only about the sax, but about the Clarinet too.
On the topic of playing different instruments and becoming confused, this hasn't been a problem for me thus far. In the plucked strings category I play guitar, bass, banjo, and mandolin. I have no problem keeping track of which instrument is which. Although, once in a while I do try to play a lick or two on the wrong instrument and it crashes. But that doesn't happen a lot. In the bowed string category I play violin, viola, and cello, and again I have no problem keeping track of which instrument I'm playing. So I'm not too worried about playing two different horns. I already play trumpet and flute.
On the difference in embrochure, I find this quite interesting. I've been trying to loosen my embrochure up on the clarinet thinking that I'm being overly tense when I play it. But I find it hard to play with a loose or relaxed embrochure. Part of that is no doubt due to the fact that it's an extremely cheap clarinet. But it's nice to know that the clarinet does require a tighter embrochure, now I know that it's not just me, it's inherent in the instrument.
In fact this is good to know because I was afraid that the sax might even require a tighter embrochure. Knowing that it will require a looser one is quite inviting.
I've also read that the Alto sax is the easiest sax to play. I think a tenor sax would be too much for me. I just want a little lightweight easy-to-play sax.
I just play in informal gigs in backyards, cafes and bars. It's always for free anyway so if people aren't paying why worry about sounding like a professional? (ha ha)
I'm just out to have fun making noise and pretending it's music.
I'm looking at buying the Orpheo Student Alto Sax at Amazon for $269. This is already well OVER my budget, but it's all I can afford right now. I hope it works to serve my purposes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-02-01 18:51
I think it's true that alto sax is the easiest sax to play and I also think it's much easier to go from clarinet to sax (as I did) instead of the other way around. The embouchure on the clarinet is more demanding, the clarinet reeds are finickier and there are more fingerings to learn on clarinet. But, shhh! Don't tell young kids that, or else they might not want to learn the clarinet. I'm convinced that anybody who can learn the sax can learn the clarinet, too, and vice-versa.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-01 19:28
Ok, I'm definitely "all-systems-go" for the sax. I just received some unexpected cash. It isn't much, but it's enough for this endeavor.
So right now I'm looking at ordering the following student alto sax from Amazon:
Orpheo Student Alto Sax at Amazon for $269
If anyone knows anything about this particular horn, or has an alternative suggestion for a similarly-priced horn, please let me know. I haven't placed the order yet but I'm looking at placing it by Wednesday.
I realize it's a cheap horn, but that's my budget. ;o)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: leonardA
Date: 2010-02-01 20:30
I started with alto sax and then added clarinet, and I can tell that this is the harder way to go. You should have no trouble picking up the alto sax after starting with clarinet.
Leonard
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-01 20:37
Whenever a good sax player plays with us in the BSO their embouchure looks just like a clarinet embouchure, just a slight bit more relaxed. The general shape and principals are the same. When I played sax, many moons ago, the only problem I had, that I didn't on the clarinet, was playing the lowest few notes, C-Bb softly because the bottom of the sax is much larger than the top. The other problem, which I never mastered on my Tenor at least, was playing what we used to call the extreme upper register, above the high F. That used to be considered the highest normal note but now sax players play much higher. I sold my sax when I went to college to buy a bass clarinet. The best move I ever made. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-01 20:45
I was actually looking at bass clarinets at one time. But try picking one of those up for under $300. Lots of luck with that! (ha ha)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2010-02-01 21:28
James.....you might think twice or more about that cheap sax. Saxophones are a lot more complicated mechanically than guitars etc etc and the cheap ones are a drug on the sax market. I'm certainly no sax expert but I do own 3 and I can tell you that they are not easy to work on. The cheap ones cost less for a reason....they're made with less precision. I think you would find that most sax people would advise you to steer clear of the cheap ones.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-01 21:53
Thanks Bob, I fully understand the pitfalls. I was told the same thing with my clarinet. I bought a $99 clarinet and I'm find with it. Clearly it would be a total disaster for a serious clarinet player. The highest register is totally unplayable. But that's cool with me since I have no desire to use that register anyway. I'm sure it also doesn't produce the kind of sound a serious orchestra performer would want to be associated with. In fact, I'm absolutely certain of that. But for backyard goofing off it works just fine. Plus if I ever buy a "real" clarinet I'll be able to play. I imagine it will be much EASIER to play as well. ;o) Not to mention sounding better.
I did the same thing with a trumpt. I bought a cheap trumpet that all the trumpet players were warning me not to buy. Well, I can see why. It's a piece of junk to be quite honest about it. None the less it serves my purposes. The valves stick ever so often and I have to disassemble it quite often to clean and re-oil the valves. But I work around it. I don't get paid for performing anyway. If I ever get paid to perform I might start considering putting some actual money into an instrument.
I did the same thing with a violin too. I bought an $80 violin and did a lot of tweaking on it. .Not to mention putting a set of $100 strings on it!. (ha ha) But it serves my purpose. In fact, later I bought a $200 violin and I actually like the $80 one better.
I realize with the sax there's no strings to upgrade, etc. You're kind of stuck with what you get. But if it's playable at all, I can work around little flaws. I'm also pretty handy as a machinist so I can actually repair and modify things as well. So, like I say, barring a completely unplayable piece of junk, if the thing plays at all it will serve it's purpose for me.
I'm also 60 years old with no intentions of ever becoming a professional musician. As long as the thing makes noises that sound anything close to a saxophone owl be happy. ;o)
So, like I say, barring completely unplayable notes, I think I'll be happy with it.
But if someone knows of anything specific with this instrument, or knows of a better one in a similar price range I might consider something else.
I was originally looking at the Noteworthy Student Eb Alto Saxophone on Amazon for $219. But the Orpheo for $269 looks better. It just looks like it would be worth the extra $50. But I really don't know.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-02-03 13:18
Instead of getting a cheap, new sax, maybe you could find a high-quality, used student sax. Vintage saxophones with famous names (such as the legendary Selmer Mark VI) sell for high prices, but used, good student saxes in excellent condition are much easier to find and afford than comparable clarinets.
People who start the clarinet (especially people interested enough to read this bulletin board) not only expect to practice but enjoy the idea. Apparently, though, quite a few lazy complete beginners, who've never played any instrument before, read that the sax is "easy" without understanding that means "easy compared to clarinet or French horn or harp or..." and assume they can just pick up a sax, zip through a "how-to" booklet and play like a champ. They practice three or four times, stick the sax in the closet, delude themselves they're going to go back to learning it any day now....
Fast-forward ten years -- they need the space, they get realistic and they sell the sax. Their loss is your gain.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-03 13:52
Lelia,
I agree with you wholeheartedly. If I lived in a metropolitan area I would certainly do that. I probably could find a great deal on a used sax by looking around at used music stores, pawn shops and so forth. The shopping trip itself would be a fun thing to do.
Unfortunately I live in a very rural area and my vehicle isn't up to making long trips to the city. In fact I should be putting this money into my car instead of a horn but I guess I'm a little off my rocker.
If this Orpheo sax is playable at all it will serve my purposes for now. If I really take off with the thing and get the point where I'm actaully playing it fairly well, then I will be inspired to upgrade. I'm sure to get some money out of it selling it used so it won't be a total loss.
Like I say, I'm a machinist and I've also worked on instruments like violins and trumpet before, so I might be able to repair or tweak any little problems it might have. As long as it's playable at all it will serve my purposes for now.
I was more concerned with how the alto sax actually compares with the clarinet. So far it sounds like it's easier to play and that continuing to play the clarinet will also be helpful (which I intend to do).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-02-03 14:14
Abracdabra,
Hold the phone, please. You have gone from asking to telling in just a short period of time (2 days). You are rushing things and will probably regret your haste.
Take the advice given above, do not get the cheap sax, wait until you can find an older Bundy, Yamaha, or Vito sax, and slow down. Do not count on the Orpheo sax to be playable and your contention that you can "get some money out" is a shaky assumption.
HRL
PS Former HS band director, still a professional woodwind player, and Bob's friend Hank.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-03 17:12
Hank,
Thank you for your concern. However, I didn't go from asking to telling.
My original question had nothing to do with the quality of instruments. My original question was concerned with how difficult it is to switch between Bb and Eb instrument, and in particular between clarinet and saxophone.
The question concerning the quality of the Orpheo student saxophone was a mere aside. Moreover I haven't heard from anyone who has had any actual experience with this particular product.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2010-02-03 20:04
Sax is not hard to pick up. It's more or less like a clarinet in terms of fingering, except that the low register uses the same fingerings as the high register (so 6 fingers down on sax is low D and high D--as opposed to being low G and high D as on clarinet). Most of the keys on the sax do what you would expect them to do from your clarinet experience.
The fingering is a little different at the point where you cross the break, though--C and C# are different, for example. The standard C is:
o x o | o o o
An alternate C (which is the one I figured out first when learning to play the sax, because I got the sax in my hands before getting a hold of a fingering chart) is:
x o o | o o o (+ second side key from the bottom)
C# is open (no fingers). (So you don't have to use your pinkies when you cross the break, unlike clarinet)
There's no thumb hole on sax. Your left thumb sits on a little platform and its only purpose is to press the register key.
Other than that, the low Bb (extra key for LH pinky), and the altissimo register, it's pretty much the same as clarinet--you can figure out most of the fingerings you need in less than 10 minutes, even without a fingering chart. Just try to play the usual high (clarion) register fingering from clarinet, and you'll find the keys you need to use on sax. It's that easy.
When I was an 8th grader, I taught myself to play the alto sax that way (experimentally) so I could try out for the school jazz band. After a couple of weeks of practice, I auditioned for the jazz band and I not only passed the audition, I actually made 1st chair. Switching from clarinet to sax is not hard at all--practically all your clarinet skills will transfer over to sax easily.
The main thing that's difficult about saxophone is playing low notes (which is quite different from clarinet, where the low notes are relatively easy). You need a very loose embouchure and lots of air to get the lowest notes to come out. Even the pros find these notes tricky, though, as I heard Branford Marsalis play a sax transcription of the Copland Clarinet Concerto on the radio once, and his main complaint about the difficulty of the piece (they interviewed him about it) was that it had a lot of *low* notes in it (precisely the opposite of what a clarinet player would say about Copland!). So don't feel too bad if you have trouble with those notes, especially at first.
Just remember to keep your embouchure loose--think relaxed, cool jazz sax player instead of uptight classical clarinet player--and you'll do fine.
Post Edited (2010-02-03 20:14)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-03 20:30
Thanks for the encouragement and for sharing your experience mrn. I've been gleaning the web for various information on this and it seems to be fairly unanimous that it will be very easy to go from clarinet to sax.
On the cheap horn issue I found the following article that I believe says volumes. In short, it basically says that technologies and foreign manufactures have increased the quality of their horns tremendously in recent years and that the old idea that those cheap saxes aren't worth buying need to be re-considered in light of this trend to better instruments.
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/Chinese_alto.htm
I also found some reviews on a really inexpensive saxophone. It's called an Etude 100 Student Sax and sells for only $249 which is actaully $20 cheaper than the Orpheo I was looking at. I couldn't find many reviews on the Orpheo though. But I found about 10 reviews from different music stores from customers who where very well pleased with the Etude sax.
So I think I'm going to go for the Etude for $249. From what I can tell from everything I read, you'd need to be a professional saxophone player to really have a problem with it. As a student and beginner sax it sounds like it's just the ticket. How can you beat $249 and free shipping? For a horn that actually plays and only has minor problems that only a professional muscian would even notice?
Sounds like the prefect practice instrument to me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2010-02-03 21:59
I think you're baiting us now, James. So long and good luck.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-03 22:24
Baiting?
I've already agree that searching around for a better quality horn would be a better idea for those who have that option available to them. Living in a rural area with limited transportation that option just isn't open to me.
I've already made my mind up that I'm going to buy an inexpensive student model mail order. The only sincere question I have at this point is whether one brand would be any better than another.
Like I say, I was originally looking at a Noteworthy sax for $219. But I have found some bad reviews for it. Then I was looking at the Orphea for $269 and while it looks good I can't really find many reviews on it.
Now I'm looking at the Selmer Etude for $249. I've found several reviews for it, all of which praise the instrument (considering the price). But overall people seem to be very happy with it and proclaim that it's quite playable.
I also see that Musician's Friend, Music123, Woodwinds & Brass, Windpro, and several other reputable music stores all carry this Selmer Etude sax, ranging from $249, to over $300 for the same horn.
I'd still like to hear more about the Orpheo sax, but due to the limited information available on it the Selmer is looking far better. The option of searching for a good used sax just isn't convenient for me. That's just my personal situation here.
I agree with the other posters. For someone who has the time and means of going around looking for a good used instrument that's probably a good way to go. That scenario just doesn't fit my needs at this point in time.
So it's not my intent to argue with anyone. I'm just trying to find the best cheap horn I can find.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2010-02-04 11:10
James,
I believe that you might find the information you seek on the Sax on the Web BB.
Good luck,
Hank
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Abracadabra
Date: 2010-02-22 14:34
Just as a follow-up for anyone who might be interested. I bought the Selmer Etude Sax for $249 and I'm well pleased with it. It will easily serve my purpose which is just to learn the instrument and get a feel for it.
I'm sure it won't have the subtle tonal qualities of a more expensive instrument but that's to be expected for the price. As far as the instrument itself is concerned it appears to be very well constructed, very rugged and I can't see it falling apart anytime soon.
It is extremely far easier to play than "my" clarinet. The embouchure is far less demanding and far more relaxed. I will confess that my clarinet is also a very inexpensive instrument at only $99. So it may be harder to play than a "real" clarinet. (ha ha)
None the less, I'm am perfectly happy with this $249 sax. Even if it falls apart within a year it would still be worth the price because it's cheaper than renting on. Although, like I say, it appears to be quite well-built actually so I have a feeling it's going to be around for a while.
Anyway, it well worth $249 as far as I can see. I think it's a great starter instrument. Easy to play and sounds great for a beginner. A professional musician might see subtle problems, but compared to what? A $3000 sax? For $249 it's worth every penny. And that's with free shipping too!
If anyone is looking for a cheap sax to try out on, I'd just say "Buy it" you can't go wrong for a starter instrument.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
