 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2010-01-28 18:20
May I suggest the following:
Before you start playing and your reed is still dry, take your mouthpiece and place your dry reed on top in its normal playing position. Now, with the mouthpiece table pointing upward, lift it to eye level with a strong light source behind it. Do you see any light between the reed and the mouthpiece table?
Here's another test: With the dry reed just laying on top of the mouthpiece, rotate it 90 degrees clockwise and look at the edges. See any light between the reed and the mouthpiece?
This might be a better test: Hold the dry reed on the mouthpiece table lightly with your thumb and try to slide cleaning paper under the reed all around the butt end perimeter. I did this and was amazed as to how far the paper would go in! (My mpc table checks perfectly flat when I use Brad Behn's recommended flat edge.)
I checked a brand new Mitchell Lurie reed and found it to be quite convex (longitudinally). I next checked the plastic container it came in. Oh my! Very, Very convex!
All of the above may not be new info to you, however, it certainly was for me!
I next checked an old reed taken from an inexpensive, plastic La Voz reed holder. The reed was actually quite flat. ( I used the flat edge recommended by Brad Behn for all of the above experiments.)
So, if you try any of the above flatness experiments and failure results, What Would You Do?
(p.s. Another question...is the plastic, La Voz reed holder "the best" for maintaining reeds to stay flat? What do "YOU" use to maintain your reeds in a (hopefully) perfectly flat condition?)
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2010-01-28 19:46
I have been using the La Voz style reed holders and it's earlier incarnation as the metal REEDGARD for 30+ years and am very happy with the results.
The later versions have small grooves in the table which is probably an improvement.
Vandoren make (made?) a very similar product.
I would think any holder that lightly clamps the reed onto a really flat surface (metal/glass/plastic) would do equally well.
Here in the UK we don't have the same humidity problems as in much of the USA so I have never dabbled with the expensive reed cases.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-28 19:48
This is a strange way to post a question. You can't keep a reed "flat". What you can do is to prevent the reed from Warping, in other words prevent the reed from not sealing on the facing of the mouthpiece. In order to keep a reed flat you would have to keep a tremendous amount of pressure on it, no reed case can do that. Even if you could did it, as soon as you wet it, it could easily go to a warp shape. Instead of writing it all here I'm going to suggest you reed my reed page on my website, I have an entire article of reed sealing. I also suggest you use a Rico Vitalizer and keep it and your reeds in a plastic air tight bag to help prevent warping. Every piece of wood will tend to warp when going from wet to dry so the secret is to keep them humidity controlled as much as possible. Read my article. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2010-01-28 21:31
Ed:
I tried your website and I kept getting "The server is taking too long to respond" message.
I can see where prevention is better than continually sanding down the reed to make it flat. I've also read, though, that if the reed is allowed to dry with equal access to air on both sides of the reed, that it won't warp. (True? False?)
BTW, Ed, what kind of reed holder do you use while they're sealed in your reed bag?
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-01-28 22:39
Dan, I'm a little confused by your post. Are you saying that seeing light between the reed and the mouthpiece table (your first test) is a sign of a warped reed? A great many mouthpieces are made with a longitudinal curve in the table. In theory it gives the reed more spring when ligature pressure is applied, pushing the reed body slightly into the curve and the reed tip a little more away from the mouthpiece tip rail.
Your other test with the paper may also reflect more the shape of the table, which may not be entirely flat by design, than it does the shape of the bottom of the reed. Clearly, makers who use the resistance curve are more concerned that the reed have two firm end points to rest against. It it important that the reed seal against the mouthpiece just under the curve and the window so air can't leak through.
Checking for flatness is best done with something you know is flat. Of course, if you've checked your mouthpiece table against a known flat edge and it _is_ flat, your tests may work with that mouthpiece.
As to reed holders, I'm a very lone wolf in preferring holders that keep the reed lying on one edge so that most of both reed surfaces are exposed to air. Warping, I've always imagined, is caused mostly when one side dries more quickly than the other. Storing a reed on a flat surface - glass, metal or plastic - ensures that the vamp surface is going to dry well before the flat bottom (those grooves in the newer Reed-Guard type holders are meant to let air under the reed - an improvement but there's still unequal circulation). In my imagination, as the wood dries on top, it contracts, pulling up against the still slightly swollen, damp bottom surface that's being held against the glass or metal of most flat reed holders. Buffet years ago used to put a plastic holder in their cases that held four reeds on their edges. They were only plastic and didn't hold up well. Leblanc makes a case made of plastic but with velvet or flannel covering the inside that works OK but doesn't hold the reeds firmly enough to be safe. I've recently discovered a line of Gonzalez cases at Muncy Winds that does an excellent job of holding the reeds on their edges.
Karl
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2010-01-29 01:01
Thank you, kdk, for your comments.
Yes, hindsight tells me that I could have clarified things a bit better. If I were to restate things, I believe I would say: If you can see light between the reed and the mpc table, there is somethings definitely wrong. Either the reed is warped, the mpc table is warped or possibly both. Either way, depending upon where the "high" spots are, placing a ligature upon a reed which has a fair amount of "light" between it and the mpc has a strong possibility of not only opening up the tip but also unduly stressing the butt end of the reed. This, of course, probably depends upon the type of ligature actually being used.
IMO, even with Zinners that have a slight concavity "in the center section of the table", a flat reed placed upon the table should, in reality, produce no light. After all, the edges of the reed, I believe, should lie "outside" the area of concavity. (I could be wrong here!)
I really like your idea of holding the reeds on edge in some way while the reed dries. However, if a reed is slightly warped, perhaps thoroughly wetting it and placing it into the La Voz reed holder to dry with the vamp area being slightly wetter will help straighten out the reed (Just a theory of mine.)
Most of my postings are so I can learn something, and, I must say, I've learned a "LOT" from all of you!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-01-29 11:58
As I understand it (and have observed it in my own mouthpieces), the resistance curve is not cut crater-like into the center of the table - it goes all the way across. If it didn't, the point of the curve would be defeated - the reed would rest on the edges and the ligature pressure would simply press it more firmly against those edges, not into the cavity. BTW, I'm not sure that "stressing the butt end of the reed" makes any difference. That's not where the vibration and response come from. But that, like most explanations (including mine) for warped reeds, rests on conjecture - I can't point to anything that "proves" whether the butt end of the reed makes any difference or not.
I doubt if, once a reed is warped, anything will straighten it. I suspect that once the fibers are distorted by warping, they won't recover their original shape. Besides, clarinet reeds aren't expensive enough nor good ones hard enough to find to make salvaging a warped reed (IMO) worthwhile. But the proof would be in the pudding. I'd be interested to know if your idea for straightening a warped reed works.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-29 18:10
Dan, I'm sorry you couldn't get to my website, try again. I just opened it without any problem so maybe it was just that time of day or night. It has over 5000 hits so I guess it's working fine. (only about ten are my hits) As far as your question, I've been using the Rico reed holders with the Vitalizers inside the case which I then keep in the bag. As I've said many times already, I never leave the bag opened or leave the reeds sit out more than the few seconds it takes to take a reed out, then I put them back in the bag and close it. My bass clarinet reeds I use the reed holders I've been using for a million years, It's just a leather reed case that holds eight reeds. I do the same thing with those. You can actually use anything to hold your reeds in the bag with the vitalizer inside the bag, keeping it closed all the time and not letting the reeds sit out in the open air to dry out.
By the way, I agree, once a reed warps it will rarely, if ever, become un-warped. If you sand it flat you will also make the reed softer. You can move the ligature up higher and make it very tight to "flatten" the reed on the MP if it's only slightly warped and that could allow it to seal better. If it's very slightly warped it might, I say might, stay flatten out the next time, maybe.
The theory behind allowing your reed to dry out bottom up is so the reed dries evenly because the warp will likely happen at the spot that dries last, but they can still warp. I hope you can reed my reed page on that. When I'm breaking my reeds in I do that until I put them in my case and bag. Then I just finger dry them and place them in my reed case and bag. The basic reason a reed, any wood produce, warps is when it goes from wet to dry so you need to keep it as humidity controlled as possible so there's never an extreme change, the premise of the Rico Vitalizers and use of an air tight bag, or container. ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-01-29 18:19)
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