 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-22 22:06
I'd like to know what your thoughts and findings on Yamaha alto clarinets are.
I bought this one the other week for £1400 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170425504824&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:GB:1123 which seems like a good price (postage included in that) considering how much they are new, and expect it to be delivered on Monday (it arrived in the UK on the 20th and is in the Parcelforce depot now).
I've already got a floor spike attachment waiting to be soldered onto the bell socket as I don't plan on playing it with a sling, and would rather it be supported basset horn-style while playing. I'm also considering fitting a LH Ab/Eb lever to it as well (probably mounted on the LH E/B rod screw in trill key fashion) in the manner of the one on Yamaha basses.
The LH main action has the LH2 and 3 fingerplates connected to the E vent with adjusting screws, so that should make it possible to play Eb/Bb as xox C#/G#|ooo as can be done on Leblanc altos and basset horns, so that's a bonus.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-01-22 22:49)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-01-23 04:37
I tried a new Yamaha alto clarinet about a year ago. I like Yamaha soprano clarinets and bass clarinet and thought I would like the alto too. I was surprised that didn't like it at all. I especially didn't like the feel of the keys. I think I remember also that the strap hook ring was in a very uncomfortable place. I didn't especially like the tone or response either. I definitely won't buy this alto clarinet. Of course this doesn't mean much to what you'd think about it.
In comparison, the alto clarinet I liked the most was a new Selmer I tried about five years ago. I think the current new Selmer is still the same. I didn't like the feel of the keys that much (usually my problem with Selmers) but sound and response were the best. I liked it a lot more than a couple of older Selmer altos I've tried. I haven't tried a new buffet yet (just one old model which was pretty good).
Post Edited (2010-01-23 06:15)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-25 16:14
I got the alto this morning and let it warm up before playing it. It will need a good service and some pads tweaked here and there (and cork pads in the speaker vents) but it plays how I expected an alto clarinet would do with a full round tone like a miniature bass.
As I used the mouthpiece that came with my Buffet basset horn, I couldn't help but try interchanging some parts - the crooks and bells fit on both instruments so it would be possible to use the Buffet basset horn bell on the alto but that means losing the low Eb as the Buffet bell doesn't have a bell key (only the vent hole) but that also means the Yamaha bell on the basset horn will extend the range to low B!
The alto crook is only just slightly longer than the basset horn's longest crook (and wider bore), so I might try that out to see what effect that could have on the basset horn (and also means I could use a basset horn crook on alto as well).
I've already taken the sling ring off the alto (it's above the RH thumbrest and throws the balance out) and the lyrebox as I won't be needing those - I might use the lyrebox as a baseplate for an adjustable thumbrest. Just need to fill in the holes and polish it all up and then fit and solder on the floor peg attachment to the bell.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2010-01-26 21:55
Hi Chris, trying to raise some activity here, on back, I was interested in what Yamaha might be doing to promote their bass and ?alto? cls, in the light of 2 US patents,4,848,206 and 4,809,580 and now recently-filed pplication. 11,685.405. the latter's resume mentioning alto. You might wish to search further , mine was "Yamaha bass clarinet". my interest was with their register key exchange mechanisms. Have fun, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-27 23:41
I've already filled in the screw holes where I took off the lyrebox and sling ring, fitted the floorspike attachment to the bell and also made the LH Ab/Eb lever which is mounted on the LH E/B rod screw.
I used a Leblanc alto clarinet LH F#/C# lever as it was exactly the right length (and already has the pin on the end) but had to take the entire thickness of the key from 3.5mm down to 3mm by filing and grinding down on a surface block. The touchpiece is made from the speaker key touch from the same Leblanc alto which has been cut, bent and shaped so it looks similar to the LH Ab/Eb touch on Yamaha bass clarinets.
The connection piece from the Ab/Eb key is the tricky part as it needs a double bend in it, and a tight one at that. I haven't got a drop forge or similar press to shape such a tight bend (or bends) in 3mm thick nickel silver sheet, so I've bent three pieces of 1mm thick nickel silver sheet so they fit together and hard soldered it to make a laminate with high temperature silver solder (G6). Then all that needs to be done is tidy it up, shape it and solder it onto the Ab/Eb key barrel.
It also looks possible to fit an articulated C#/G# on this alto as well - the LH main action pillars at the lower end of the top joint will need to be replaced with doubled pillars to mount the C#/G# pad cup on the lower level and the touchpiece will keep it closed. Then a connecting arm from the RH main action vent can close it with an adjusting screw. Adding the articulated C#/G# will make it a full Boehm as it already has the forked Eb/Bb and low Eb - plus the Ab/Eb lever I've got to finish.
On Buffet altos they have the open bell vent - so fitting a key on the bell and a low D key on the body (probably easiest to make one for the right thumb) will give low D which will give the same lowest note as a basset horn.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2010-01-28 14:14
Chris,
Looks as though you got a great horn for the price! A new Buffet is about 3-4X more!
On my Buffet alto they still have the open bell key and Eb on the horn so you can play a low D by covering the open hole, and thus cover the basset horn range too. What has impressed me a lot on the Buffet alto is the altissimo notes too. I can play to C7 (written) on that horn quite easily and in good tune too. Of course there are few alto parts that ascend to those levels although I do have one that goes to the B.
Anyway I'm interested if you tried the Yamaha up to those notes. The new Buffet actually seems to be designed more like their basset horns. it has a narrower bore on the upper joint than my old LeBlanc alto. Also love having a peg. I don't do straps!
Eefer guy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-28 15:13
The altissimo is very easy and in tune on the Yamaha alto (right up to super C) and can be done with much simpler and straightforward fingerings as well.
Definitely much easier to play with a floorspike than a sling. I'm currently using the one for my basset horn until the Selmer (USA) one I ordered gets delivered. I'll most likely get one of these for it http://www.wwbw.com/Wolf-Super-Endpin-Rest-For-Cello-464302-i1418754.wwbw as my Buffet bass and basset horn has them.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-28 20:46
LH Ab/Eb lever is now fitted and I'll post the photos soon.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-01-28 20:47)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2010-01-28 21:40
Chris, reading these posts, it strsikes me that you may have Invented some keywork "things". I know little of GB patent requirements/procedures, but would suggest [per US procedure] that you might limit disclosure of "critical" info here and elsewhere to protect your right to patent in the future. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-28 22:26
I haven't invented anything special here - similar keywork can be found on very old Selmer clarinets, so it shows that good tried and tested ideas will always stand the test of time.
The linkage piece is soldered directly to the Ab/Eb key barrel as on very old Selmers with the Ab/Eb lever (and is pinned like the other LH levers) - not a pillar or flat metal lug soldered onto the pad cup as later models had.
I used a Buffet nylon pin in the end of the LH Ab/Eb lever as the lever was a bit too long once I soldered the linkage piece in place, so I had to grind the existing pin off and another 3mm off the end of the LH Ab/Eb lever to get a good fit.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-01-28 22:29)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-28 22:32
All that has to be done is to reshape some things here and there, then clean it all up, polish and then have it all silver plated. As it stands in its 'in the rough' state, it all works well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-01-28 22:51)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-28 22:47
Attachment: AltoClarEbLever.jpg (114k)
Attached is a collage of the photos.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2010-01-30 13:23
Chris,
Very clever! The Buffet Prestige alto has the left hand Eb and it is so valuable. Am glad you have found a solution. Looks as though it was there all along!
I was wondering if the reason that the Buffet Prestige did such a better job with the high notes was the smaller bore on the upper joint. It feels more like a basset horn in many respects, but obviously that's not the case if the Yamaha also has good altissimo notes. Any ideas? My two older LeBlancs were always a bit wild in the altissimo range.
Eefer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-30 13:36
So do Buffet altos have a 17mm top joint bore and an 18mm lower joint bore with a step at the middle tenon?
Or does the top joint bore widen gradually towards the middle tenon (ie. a conical bore) or is there a step part way down (in polycylindrical fashion)?
The Yamaha has a completely cylindrical 17mm bore and 17.8mm crook socket bore - the Leblanc altos and basset horns have an 18mm bore. My Buffet basset horn has a 17.2mm bore so the Yamaha alto's bore is narrower than the Buffet basset horn.
If you know anyone with a Yamaha alto, maybe you could compare it side by side with your Buffet to see how different they are. The Yamaha alto does play and sound very similar to my Buffet basset horn - I expected a much fatter sound from an alto, but pleasantly surprised it plays more like a basset horn.
The most recent Amati alto appears to be a Yamaha copy - their earlier one was a ring key model to low E (both with 17mm bore) http://www.amati.cz/produkty/eb-alto-clarinets/.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-01-30 13:48)
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2010-01-30 13:47
May I suggest one more enhancement to your already heroic work on your Yamaha AC. The "thumb rest" in your photo is entirely inadequate to an instrument being played on a floor peg. Why don't you look for a thumb hook from (for instance) an old Buffet bass clarinet, which will give you a lot more stability on throat tones and high c without the need for a sling.
Now that you have your own alto clarinet you qualify as official nerd!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-01-30 13:59
I'm going to make and fit an adjustable thumbrest to it soon. I already have the baseplate (which was the lyrebox I removed from the top joint) and all I need now is some square section brass rod to fit snugly into the lyrebox and solder a much larger plate onto the end of that.
I generally play bass and basset horn (and this alto) held at an outward angle so it won't topple forwards (away from me) when playing high C - the weight of the instrument keeps it in place, though the RH Ab/Eb or F/C keys can be held down for stability if need be.
Comparing the tone of the Yamaha alto and my Buffet basset horn (jst played both side-by-side), the Yamaha alto has a broad and weighty tone compared to the basset horn's much more compact tone - probably (and I'm speculating here) a similar comparison is between a French and German bass clarinet if they were to be compared directly.
... Official 'soup ladle' or 'woodwind equivalent of a viola' owner.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2010-01-30 21:27)
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2010-01-30 23:46
Chris,
I'm not sure on the diameters but I can tell you the Buffet Prestige alto is much more narrow than my LeBlanc alto as the swab that I use on it and the LeBlanc basset horn and alto won't go through the upper joint on the Buffet Prestige. The placement of the keys is different too and the upper joint of the Buffet is ~2" longer than the LeBlanc and the bottom joint ~1" longer than the LeBlanc. So the body of the Prestige alto is noticeably longer and more narrow, more like a basset horn.
I think this arrangement of the keys and joints makes for a much more in tune horn. The only key I don't like is the upper trill key for a Bb-B trill. The second tril key is off too. Otherwise the horn is close to perfect. It has a distinctive alto sound but it blows with more resistance than the LeBlanc alto. I find that I can make better pp attacks on the Buffet too and it can speak loudly when needed.
Right now I'm using the Lomax alto/ basset horn mouthpiece and I have found it to be superior to anything else I've tried with that horn. The Hite one isn't bad on this horn and the LeBlanc altos and basset horns too. Wish you could see my pile of alto mouthpieces that I've bought and don't use!
Eefer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2010-02-03 15:34
Just realised the Yamaha clarinet catalogue from around 1986 has the bore sizes listed in the specification chart on the back cover (the later ones don't have bore sizes listed at all) - the alto clarinet bore is 17.10mm in this chart.
The YCL-82II (Bb), 85II (A) and 62II (Bb) have 14.65mm (or .577") bores (like an R13), the YCL-65II (A) has a 14.75 (.581") bore. The YCL-34II and 26II have 14.70mm (.579") bores. The 82II and 62II both have 64.5mm barrels and all others have 66mm barrels.
YCL-621 (bass to low Eb - no low C bass at this point in time) is 23.5mm (or .925"), YCL-631 (alto) is 17.10mm (.673") and YCL-681 (Eb soprano) is 13.07mm (.515") with a 42mm barrel.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-04 09:43
Attachment: ycl-631 007.JPG (768k)
Attachment: Yamaha YCL-631.jpg (331k)
Pimped YCL-631 alto clarinet in all its glory!
All the keywork alterations have now been plated and back on the instrument.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-12-04 10:10
Wow....black cork. Is this from the silverplate, or is it your answer to red thread?
--
Ben
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-12-04 10:24
Yeah, the plating in the bell socket turned the cork black - I should've cleaned it up for the photo!
I had to resize the bell tenon by building up the shoulder with superglue and wood dust (and then turning down to the correct diameter and depth) and fitting a nickel silver tenon ring as the bell was rocking. Now it's a good and wobble-free fit which is better as I'm supporting it with the floor spike (which fits in the case under the lid cushion by the hinges) and I could feel the bell rocking on the tenon while playing. The middle tenon could also do with being a better (tighter) fit in the lower joint socket, but it doesn't rock.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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