 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: moonshine30
Date: 2010-01-17 05:57
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Hi there!! I'm a newbie to posting on this forum. I come here for research info all the time though. Great place to find clarinet info. Here goes:
I have to clarinets I just purchased for $50 each from local pawn shops.
1. Selmer Signet Special with original signet case. Serial number 75,483, which dates it to 1969ish according to clarinetperfection.com??
Looks to be nothing wrong with it other than needs about 10 give or take pads replaced and needs to be adjusted. Can't play more than 1 or 2 notes right now, everything else squaks. Good corks, no cracks, good condition case. The selmer special usa logo is on the top joint, says selmer usa on bottom joint, says selmer special usa on bell, and says nothing on the barrel.
2. Buffect Crampon and Cie, Paris, Made in Paris, LP (low pitch), H. Bettoney, Boston Mass. Serial number P849
Here is the description of the logo on the clarienet.
There is a U shaped symbol above the oval.
In the oval is says Buffet Crampon
Underneath that it says Paris.
Under the oval is the letters BC.
Then under that it says Made in France
Under that it says LP
Under that is says H. Bettoney
Under that is says Boston, Mass.
At first glance, obviously one would think this would be a better instrument, but it has quite a few condition issues. I have attached pictures which hopefully are clear enough to show the damage.
Here is a description of all of the damage:
The barrel is a Selmer Paris barrel and has a crack running from one band to the other band and the crack does go all the way through.
The top body piece is where all of the the main conditon problems are. Please refer to pictures mroe than my descriptions, as I don't know if I have all of the terminology right.
One the back side of the top body where the wrap around register key is, the two posts that hold on the rester key look like they have been remounted. And there is a crack that runs from about 2 inches goint south from the lower register key post all the way down to the F hole. The same crack starts again from the top post of the register key and goes all the way to the cork and stops there. The crack is all the way through the body for most of that length, but it looks like there are 4 pins that have been put in, as I can see the wood plugs.
Now on the very opposite side of the crack listed above on the top body, there is another crack that runs from the joint all the way to the first hole of the set of 4 side keys(that would be the longest of the set of 4 side keys), and then the crack jogs from that first hole over to the second lower side key hole. This crack as well goes all the way through. There are 3 pins that I can see that have been put in.
The lower body is in excellent condition and there is nothing wrong with it.
The bell has no cracks in it, but has a big chunk missing from the upper side where the bottom of the bell meets the bell ring. It doesn'tg go through to the underside of the bell wood though.
Thats it!!
Sorry for the horribly long winded email, I just figured if I covered all my info the first time, everyone would have all the info.
I only want to keep one of these clarinets. Or do people think I should keep both?? The selmer special I can't return and the buffet crampon I can return. Which one is better taking into consideration the conditions and brands of these two instruments. Thanks!!
Jennifer
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Author: moonshine30
Date: 2010-01-17 06:04
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Last picture of the bell of the clarinet. Let me know what you guys think. I'm mainly wondering if the buffet is a keeper or is too beat up. Would love everyone's advice about both of these. Also, confirmation on the age of this clarinet. Thanks!!
Jennifer
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Author: moonshine30
Date: 2010-01-17 06:08
I did do some research and the serial number P849 dates it to 1901 via ClarinetPerfection. Is that correct?? Just want to make sure this isn't a stencil.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-01-17 14:44
moonshine30 -
The Buffet is not a stencil. The Bettony name is stamped on the bell (as the Fischer name was stamped later) because Bettony at the time had the exclusive right to import Buffet products into the United States.
The upper joint is a huge problem. The cracks are enormous and very clumsily repaired. An artist restorer (such as Steve Fox, if he's doing this any more) could possibly make it playable, but I'm not sure it would be worthwhile.
Guy Chadash bores out the upper joint and inserts a Delrin lining, but I think the lining duplicates the early R-13, and not the 1901 bore, which was different. Also, the instrument needs much additional work to restore the keys and posts.
The Selmer barrel won't work at all. It's the wrong length and the wrong bore. Don't toss it, though. Repair techs like to get old, cracked barrels, which they grind into grenadilla dust and mix with epoxy to make a filler for gaps. The filler could be used to reconstruct the missing material on the bell, but if there's no leak, it would do just as well to leave it as is.
The Buffet is a *major* reconstruction job, and there's a good chance that even with repairs it won't be usable.
The Signet will probably be a perfectly playable intermediate instrument, if you like the Selmer late-60s sound. However, you should have it looked at before deciding what to do, since it may need more than repadding. For example, the rims under the pads could be warped or nicked, which would require a fair amount of work to fix, and there could be hidden cracks. For the cost of the work, you could probably get a used intermediate Buffet, Yamaha or Vito, which will be a better instrument.
The instruments were certainly worth $50 price, but, particularly with the Buffet, the highest and best use is probably as a lamp.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Molloy
Date: 2010-01-17 15:12
That Buffet is toast. The Signet Special, if in good condition, is probably a pretty good instrument.
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Author: USFBassClarinet
Date: 2010-01-17 16:22
If you feel particularly lucky, you could go around to the local repair shops and see if they have a matching top joint. I know the shops I have been to usually have a box or cabinet of top and bottom joints of clarinets that like yours, have lost their top joint due to extensive cracks. They seem to steal screws and keys off of them though, but since you have your top joint, maybe it could be put back together. Still a chunk of work though and maybe still not worth it.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-01-17 16:56
I agree that the Buffet is a wreck, but wrecks have their uses. Your local repair tech might want it for parts, if s/he hasn't already got ten parts horns sitting around. There's plenty of salvagable stuff on there. See if you can trade the wreck for some of the refurbishing work on the Selmer.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: moonshine30
Date: 2010-01-18 14:17
Hey, thanks everyone for the great info. The buffet is going back to the pawn shop. I actually talked to a new repair tech that I had met about it, and he mentioned that he had seen it and passed it up at the pawn shop as well because of all the condition issues. He had thought about buying it for parts though. I can get my money back, so I'm just going to return it.
Hopefully the Signet special will just need some pads and will be good to go. This tech I met has his own business and he said he could do 10 pads or so for only $40, so I thought that was quite affordable. Assuming he knows what he is doing.
Thanks again everyone!!
Jennifer
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-01-18 16:26
I have an 1890 Buffet Albert lamp, from which Jimmy Yan wanted to get some screws and rods for an instrument he was restoring. When I brought it in, he said everything was the wrong size.
Kalmen Opperman told me that Buffets of that era were made by hand. Each technician filed down blocks of German silver into his own personal key shape and made the posts, pivot screws and rods to match. It would be purely a matter of chance whether parts from this Buffet would match another old one.
Kal also told me that each Buffet technician stamped an identifying initial on the bottom of at least one key, or sometimes inside a pad cup. Maybe if the junker had the same maker's initial, the parts would fit.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-01-18 19:21
Wow, Ken, I didn't realize that individual Buffet technicans even made their own screws and rods. Thanks for that information. It'll make me a lot less likely to buy a parts horn -- and a lot more careful to make sure I don't lose any of those itty-bitty screws.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2010-01-18 22:44
It may be a wreck but it can be restored. The octave posts look like a mess though ...
But the cost to restore it ( restoration plus an overhaul) far outweighs the cost of watching that auction site for a much better specimen. I bought my 1900ish wraparound for $220 .. no cracks and the original barrel
Ken ... can I have your lamp ?
Lelia - you can make key rods from material from Votaw, Ferrees, etc.
I had two old Buffet Alberts here and the keys I needed were not interchangeable. The posts and internal screw rod was though .. the posts were just placed in a slightly different location on the body. One key arm had a curve, the other didn't to cover the tonehole properly ... of course this was only two recent examples.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-01-19 15:51
>Lelia - you can make key rods from material from Votaw, Ferrees, etc.>
Yup, I bummed my husband's tap-and-die set and made a rod once, to replace one so kinked that I thought it'd be easier to replace it than to try to unkink it. I hope I never have to tap a rod again. I found it difficult on a rod that small and I wrecked at least two rods before I got it right. Maybe practice would make perfect, but....
Somebody'd taken that clarinet apart, apparently couldn't get it back together and dumped the whole mess on the flea market vendor with the keys, rods, screws, etc. jumbled in a plastic bag taped to the outside of the (cramped) case. That's probably how the rod got so damaged, with the hard case and its plastic bag crammed up against other stuff in the dealer's truck.
What a gigantic pain that clarinet was to sort out -- but then again, I only had to pay something like $10 to take a chance that the clarinet was salvagable, and I learned a lot from it. (Among other things, I learned that taking off the keys and tossing all the parts at random into a bag, instead of keeping them sorted from the start, is dumb.) It turned out all the keys, screws, etc. were there. That clarinet was a plastic one that I bought so I wouldn't take a chance on damaging a valuable clarinet, while I was learning how to re-pad. I donated it to a school later.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2010-01-21 12:51)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-01-20 09:27
The Buffet is more trouble than its worth, but the Selmer could be OK as long as there is no physical damage to the tone holes and tenons. I've repadded and recorked quite a few Signet Specials from that auction site, and so far I've never found one that didn't turn out as a good playable intermediate instrument.
Tony F.
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-01-20 10:42
I seem to recall from my visit to Backun's workshop that the screws, nuts, levers and whatnot tend to be placed in numbered slots when an instrument is stripped of all of its keywork. I am guessing that this is a common practice so that each screw will be placed back to where it was once the instrument keywork is reassembled.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-01-20 12:59
Ferree's sells an excellent screw board: a small, wooden board covered with a paper diagram of the keys. Holes punched in the diagram correspond to the screws for particular keys. Easy way to keep everything sorted. I also made myself a life-sized paper diagram that fits in a cardboard box lid that I use to hold the rods, keys and so forth when they're off the clarinet. Those magnetic pans can come in handy, too, for setting a screw or a steel spring down just for a moment when there's no problem about knowing where it goes on the clarinet.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-01-20 16:10
When I was in the 7th grade, one night when my parents were out I took my Bundy apart to oil it and see how it worked. Naturally I dumped everything on the table, and naturally I had no idea what went back where.
My parents came home to find me in tears, and they took the entire mess to the local music store, where the repairman put it back together.
Even on a modern, mass-produced instrument like a Bundy, the rods and point screws wear differently and need to be put back in the original positions.
After the trauma, I learned to lay out a thin towel, on which I put the keys as I removed them, in an "exploded" position. Rather than putting the screws and rods on a screw board, I screwed them gently back in the posts. That way there can never be any mistakes.
Ken Shaw
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