 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-01-14 12:12
I have a private student who is in middle school and has been playing for about a year and a half. The student is always very pleasant, but nothing seems to stick. We've been going around and around with some basic first-year rhythms and slurring, and it has been quite an adventure.
I've gone beyond the book, and I've written out some easy selections to try to help him. We'll go over everything carefully. We'll count it out, we'll clap it and sing it, and he'll play perfectly. He'll really seem to understand it. Then, five minutes later, the same thing will come up again and he will have forgotten everything we've gone over. It's as if we never worked on it at all.
It's very normal for students to forget, and it's very normal for teachers to go back and review. Even when this happens, I feel like I'm moving forward with most students. With this one, I feel like we're treading water and not going anywhere.
I've talked to his parents and they tell me he's really practicing a lot, but I have doubts. They're nice, but I never quite have the feeling that they're really telling me the truth. His lesson last Monday afternoon was one of the most frustrating things I've ever gone through. I've never seen so much learning and forgetting within ten minutes, and this is with material that we've been going over for weeks.
Do you think there's any hope for him? Any suggestions?
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2010-01-14 12:30
My first thought was that he isnt practicing. But if your saying he forgets it 10 minutes after you have reviewed it with him, it sounds more like a cognitive thing that he cant help. Any idea how he does in his classes? Is he retaining that information?
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-01-14 12:58
I think janlynn's onto something and I think that asking about the student's academic progress is an excellent idea. Forgetting in ten minutes during the lesson could mean he's got brain damage or a pretty serious attention deficit disorder. (Does he play sports? Has he suffered a concussion? has he had an illness with a high fever?)
Usually, if a kid just isn't paying attention, because of poor discipline or wishing he could be somewhere else, you can tell. The eyes wander, the replies to questions come out as vague uh-huhs instead of real answers, the body language looks as if his legs want to carry him in the direction of the door, etc.. But if the student seems to be alert and focussed, but can't retain the stuff, then that's more likely a medical problem.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2010-01-14 13:10
Wait.
I have had students just like that who struggled mightily for years and then suddenly blossomed into a good player and leader. You know, if this little guy enjoys the lessons and whatever practicing gets done then it is all good. If not, then he will opt out at some point and still benefit from your help and kind attention. Some of my worst, most frustrating private students have become my most valued students down the line, even if they never approach a decent level of competency on their instrument. If he does have a learning disability of some sort, any amount of focus you can bring into his learning will help him in the long run.
It is guys like you that can be a major force of change for a youngster. I say keep at it as long as he and his parents want him to.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-01-14 14:00
Some kids are just slow - they learn more slowly, they generalize with more difficulty than other kids their age, and their attention (despite possible outward appearances) is less concentrated and focused than other kids' under the same instructional conditions. It may well be that what you're trying to teach him is really still beyond him developmentally. "Treading water" may be the best you and he can do together until some more lights begin to turn on inside his head. Rhythm in particular is, in my experience, very dependent on the student's cognitive developmental level. Very young children are generally taught rhythmic concepts mnemonically - with syllables or word groups that sound in some way like the rhythms they represent (think Kodaly). Older students are often presumed to understand "counting," which is based mostly on arithmetically subdividing rhythmic units, usually whatever represents one beat in the prevailing meter, into smaller ones (1-e-and-a, etc.). Subdivision is a fairly abstract process, and students (I saw lots of them in 30 years of public school teaching) reach the ability to handle that kind of abstraction at different ages. This one may just be slower at approaching that stage than most. Or he may be exhibiting some kind of "auditory learning disability" which may prevent him from holding onto or easily organizing aural memories.
>
> I've talked to his parents and they tell me he's really
> practicing a lot, but I have doubts. They're nice, but I never
> quite have the feeling that they're really telling me the
> truth.
Sometimes kids (and adults) "practice" - i.e. spend time playing the instrument - without really accomplishing anything because they're just practicing their mistakes over and over. That there's no improvement may be more because he can't remember what he "learned" at the lesson and is simply spending the time playing incorrectly.
> Do you think there's any hope for him? Any suggestions?
For now, this depends almost entirely on what his parents are hoping he'll get from the lessons and from playing the clarinet. You as the teacher may have limited options - continue to "tread water" with him patiently and hope that things begin to click in time (no pun intended) or suggest to the parents as diplomatically as possible that they may be wasting your time, their son's time and their money.
One thing you might try if you haven't already, specifically in the area of rhythm (which is most students' greatest nemesis in any case), is to go back to a more mnemonic approach - if you're familiar with Kodaly or Gordon mnemonic syllables, try them instead of counting. Extensive modelling may help (I assume you're already doing some of that). Since things aren't going in visually (via reading the notation and translating it to sound), you might do whatever you can to pattern his muscles and aural memory directly - play along, model, continue having him sing and sing along, etc... to see if he can memorize the sound without worrying about whether he's reading the notation accurately. He won't generalize to other examples of the same notation, but you may get a different perspective on what he's capable of feeling and remembering about the sound itself.
I once had a violin (don't ask) student who in 5th grade couldn't read a note and whose performance of written music was more or less random. But if I played something for her, she could play it back very accurately. When as an experiment I gave her a CD (pre-MP3 players) of the contents of an entire lesson, she came back the following week able to play most of it very well. She played in the elementary school orchestra by imitating by ear what the other kids were playing. I can't tell you she became a virtuoso violinist - in fact she stopped playing when she got to middle school because the musical problems became more difficult than she could keep up with and her family situation didn't provide the support she'd have needed, so it's a legitimate question whether or not anything she accomplished in elementary school meant much in the long run. That's something, I always felt, that I could never predict in advance.
In the end this student may not ever become a competent clarinetist, even by school standards, and may even give up on his own sooner or later, but you can't know that now. And if he's getting something socially out of his participation in the music program at school, that may be enough for his parents to justify the time and effort.
Good luck with him.
Karl
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Author: pewd
Date: 2010-01-14 17:25
Have you asked the parents if the student has any diagnosed learning disorders, such as ADD or ADHD? Is he on any medications?
I have a few students with ADD or ADHD, when they're off their medicine, I might as well send them home without a lesson - they exhibit the 'forget it 10 minutes later' symptoms you describe. Some forget in seconds - we work on a passage, they get it right, then I ask them to repeat it. They often times can't repeat the same simple line a few seconds later. Some of the students on medication for learning disorders receive the same lessons year after year - they keep forgetting basic technique and rhythms after years of lessons. It requires much patience to teach such students.
A few others put 15 minutes on their practice cards, 4, 5 days a week. That is not practicing, that's just getting the instrument together and a reed on it. Yet they think they're working hard.
Sometimes I need to go over what is expected in a practice session with the parents, to make sure they understand how much of a commitment to hard work is required. I also stress the use of a metronome, and breaking assignments up into small pieces , working on each piece over and over until mastered. Really, that is the most important part of working with young students - teaching them how to practice, and making sure the student, and their parents, know what is expected in terms of preparation for the lessons.
hope that helps,
good luck
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
Post Edited (2010-01-14 17:28)
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2010-01-14 18:44
As a teacher who has taught a number of students with learning challenges and other disorders on both clarinet and piano (I even had one clarinet student with sensory integration problems, and have taught a student with autism for over 5 years), you might consider going into a clarinet method that is slower paced, like the one I normally use (Galper Clarinet Method) goes too fast for most students like this, and so I put them in a method that I know moves at a slower pace (there's one that I've put three such students in, called A New Tune a Day, which comes with a pretty good CD), but contains lots of little pieces, written theory, and short duets. Playing along with such students helps. Also do lots of rhythm and ear training games, and even written theory, perhaps with a theory book usually geared toward younger beginners, I've had luck with such students with a fairly recent new theory book, the Dr. Mozart Theory books. (I do not work for them; my music store gave me a copy to review it for them.)
Just throwing some ideas out there...
Meri
Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-01-14 20:03
-- "I have a few students with ADD or ADHD, when they're off their medicine, I might as well send them home without a lesson - they exhibit the 'forget it 10 minutes later' symptoms you describe." --
Seriously, is there medication for ADD?
Steve
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-01-14 21:04
Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I've done some rhythm and ear training games, and I think I'll do more. Kdk mentioned Kodaly rhythms. I like them and use them on occasion (if needed), and I've used them with this student.
I'm not sure how well this student does in school, but his school isn't the best. Sometimes well behaved students get good grades in schools where
a lot of terrible behavior goes on around them, and I think this might be true with this student.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-01-15 00:26
Also dexedrine, adderal, sometimes clonodine. ADD and ADHD are essentially the same diagnosis, the addition of H signifying hyperactivity as well as attention deficit.
Karl
Post Edited (2010-01-15 00:27)
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2010-01-15 01:17
My son has ADHD. He's a smart kid, very creative, well-behaved. He just can't concentrate on one thing at a time, and forgets instructions very quickly, even while in the middle of a task. He struggled in school (math facts just didn't stick, his folders were a mess, there was always unfinished work, etc. On school days, he takes Concerta, which wears off after about 8 hours. When not medicated, there's not a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde effect, but rather we notice he starts to move from one thing to the next, leaving the first item unattended or unfinished and doesn't even notice that he's doing it. It's not that his brain is moving more slowly than other boys, it's that it's moving faster, paying attention to more, and can't filter out what's important.
After a meeting with the principal, his teachers, the school psychologist and the school nurse, we have gone with a little bit of classroom modification. The teacher places a hand on his shoulder or taps a pencil on his desk to make sure he is fully attending when a new concept is being taught. We found that he processes visual input very slowly compared to some of his peers, so the instructions are read to him and repeated if necessary.
Also, he has a special binder, and is the only kid in class with one, and he takes it everywhere with him. In it, the pockets are marked "homework," "things to go to or from the teacher," "lunch money," "finished work," and there's a list for him to read at the end of each day, reminding him to bring home appropriate books or materials that he may need to complete homework.
If your instruction is mostly verbal, perhaps he has trouble processing that information and needs a written backup, or maybe he needs to feel or touch what stacatto is like (perhaps on a piano - compared to legato). Maybe tape record your lessons. You may also want to find out from the parents which days are best for him to practice. Then, create a practice calendar for him. For instance, on Mondays, warm up for 5 minutes (and actually write out the warm-up you want him to do), practice slurring for 10 minutes (give him another visual cue, maybe write down a hint that you discussed in lessons) and practice the assigned song for 10 minutes. On Tuesday, write out the entire practice session that you want him to accomplish that day.
More frequent, shorter practices may help, and you should give him lessons in a room with little distractions (not much to look at, to listen to, etc.). Sounds like he can't stay with it longer than a few minutes. If you are doing an hour lesson, maybe 30 minutes is all he can take. Work on only one technique per lesson.
My son now makes A's and B's in school, and, with the extra organizational help, has been better able to keep up with his lessons without help. I remember the day he had to write a report on hedgehogs...two pages took a day and a half. At one point, he just put his head in his hands and said, "I just can't concentrate!"
Rather than playing the instrument for the entire lesson, take the time that is needed at the end to get him completely organized before he leaves. There's probably no reason to spend more time preparing to teach the kid, but a shorter amount of time playing combined with very specific practice instructions (let him see you write it down and discuss it as you do) may very well help.
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-01-15 16:46
-- "Also dexedrine, adderal, sometimes clonodine. ADD and ADHD are essentially the same diagnosis, the addition of H signifying hyperactivity as well as attention deficit." --
Karl, can ADD be controlled/reversed like ADHD?
Our youngest has mild ADD, so I'm very interested. This year we will have him tested for APD to try and get a better understanding.
Steve
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-01-15 18:19
stevensfo wrote:
> Karl, can ADD be controlled/reversed like ADHD?
Absolutely. As Karl noted, the diagnosis is the same--just some people have hyperactivity and others don't. In fact, the modern terminology is to call ADD and ADHD by the same name, ADHD, but to identify different "subtypes" of ADHD based on which symptoms are more prevalent.
In addition to the stimulant medications Karl listed, some patients can be treated with an atypical antidepressant like bupropion (brand name Wellbutrin) or with the norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor atomoxetine (brand name Strattera).
Post Edited (2010-01-16 02:48)
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Author: clarinetcase
Date: 2010-01-16 01:02
Have you considered the student's learning modality or learning style? At the extremes, bodily knesthetic learners typically have problem with material presented visually and aurally. Visual learners can have difficulty intergrating material presented aurally to a bodliy knesthetic experience. Unfortunately, most teaching is centered around verbal-linquistic and logical- mathematical learners. My guess, as I've dealt with it, is that this student has problems with applying a visual context to a spatial situation. In other words he has problems processing the notes on the page to the experience of playing. Does he have problems playing back something after you've played it? Does he play better if you show him and he repeats it- "wrote learning"? If so it usually works better to teach material backwards at first. Teach the notes and the patterns. When they are solid present in small doses on paper and slowly work into digressions from the taught patterns. In the business of building dendrites, sometimes you need to do whatever it takes for it to stay with the student.
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