 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2009-12-19 05:47
Many years (decades) ago my then clarinet teacher told me to give my reeds a wipe with a block of beeswax and then burnish them with the barrel of a pen to seal the grain. Has anybody ever come across this and could they comment on its effectiveness?
Tony F.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-12-19 12:25
Back in the '70s, my teacher suggested sealing the reeds by applying a spot of cork grease to a clean sheet of paper and then "polishing" the underside of the reed against the paper by a motion similar to sanding.
It worked, but I don't know how much better it made the reeds, if at all. I don't do that today with my cane reeds.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-12-19 12:26)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-19 14:18
You probably should never seal a reed by adding a foreign substance. I can't imagine that would prolong a reeds life or make it play better, besides, YUK! ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-19 14:28
LOL--back in my college days (1960's) all of us clarinet majors were attempting to seal our reeds by rubbing them with talcum powder. In the long run, the only thing accomplished was that they slipped into our mouths much easier. I agree with Ed, "Yuk".
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-12-19 14:28
One teacher recommended rubbing the flat side and the vamp with a piece of newspaper (so the ink rubbed off and acted much as cork grease or wax might). I never liked the way it looked.
Karl
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-12-19 15:39
My "boss" has me rub the back of the reed on 600-grit sandpaper and polish the vamp with the same stuff --with the reed supported on the glass. I do this soon after "qualifying" the reed for strength and balance. It only takes a few moments, but if the reed needs a touch up, there is no use polishing it first.
The smooth reed is gentle on my lip! I've been keeping a couple of boxes of reeds in a freezer baggie with a hygrometer and a humidifier. I keep 12 reeds in aluminum and plastic holders in my case, which I keep at about 60% relative humidity with wet sponges. The 12-reed rotation has greatly extended their life!
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-12-19 17:17
Many years ago, I read that using rush took off fine dust on the down-stroke and rubbed into the pores on the up-stroke, thus sealing them. It may have been in Keith Stein's The Art of Clarinet Playing. For me it never seemed to make any difference compared with a reed knife, which I've always preferred. Any dust just came right back out.
Kenneth Jaffrey, an Australian player, published a pamphlet called Reed Mastery, in which he recommended using an oval jeweler's burnisher to crush the open pores on the vamp, thus sealing them. I tried that, but it didn't work and seemed to reduce reed life. Instead, I wet a new reed, put it on a glass plate and rub the vamp with my fingertip until it's dry. This puts a smooth finish on the cane. It makes the reed feel better against my lip, though I'm not sure it increases reed life.
Jaffrey also recommended soaking reeds in eucalyptus oil mixed with wood alcohol to seal the pores. Since wood alcohol is poisonous, I substituted vodka. That didn't work.
Alan Segal sells a product called Reed Life, claimed to prevent mold and other deterioration, which I haven't tried. http://www.doctorsprod.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=38
Several years ago in the Double Reed Society magazine, Ed Lacy published the results of numerous oboe and bassoon cane soaking experiments. He found that cane was improved and stabilized by the three soakings of 48 hours each, changing the water every 12 hours and keeping the jars in the dark to retard mold growth. That is, he did four consecutive 12-hour soaks, let the cane dry out for a few days, and repeated the process two more times. Anything less didn't dissolve all the salts out of the cane. Anything more made no difference. I haven't tried it, but since water is free, the experiment would be worthwhile.
I soak new reads in water for about half an hour and then sand the bottoms to a near mirror finish on 600 grit sandpaper over a sheet of plate glass. I repeat this process several times, until any warping stops -- that is, until the bottom stays flat after soaking. I finish the process with a Kal Opperman recommendation, rubbing the bottom on the back of a pre-paid Postal Service post card, which is a smooth, un-printed light cardboard. I'm not sure this seals anything, but it definitely stabilizes the cane and maintains a tight seal against the mouthpiece table.
Soaking a dying reed in hydrogen peroxide until it stops bubbling adds a few days to the reed's life. The process raises the fibers, so I lightly sand the bottom again and give the vamp the fingertip treatment.
Another trick that works for a dying reed about half the time is to take a coping saw or hacksaw and cut off 1/8" or 3/16" at the butt. You can also use a reed knife to remove a thick 1/8" or 3/16" shaving off the bottom at the butt.
It's easy to get used to an aging reed, not noticing that it's declining. Rotating reeds means they're all slowly declining. It's important to put on a fresh reed every week or so, to give yourself perspective. I often find that I need to pitch half a dozen formerly good reeds at once.
There's no way to revive a dead reed. I've tried keeping some for 30 years, on the chance that aging might help. Nope.
I've also tried cutting almost the entire vamp off and cutting a new vamp. Nope. Once cane is dead, it's dead all the way to the back.
Give yourself a little sadistic pleasure by introducing Mr. Reed tip-first to Mr. Wall, followed by a bank shot into Mr. Wastebasket.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-19 19:01
KDK, ink from newspaper is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Can you imagine transfering the ink from the reed to your lip. Double YUK. I can't remember which teacher told me to never get any foreign matter onto the reed, he said, especially newsprint. ESP
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-12-19 19:38
Sealing the reed is a great idea. The purpose would not be for the quality of sound but the stability of how it plays. Plastic reeds might not be everyone's cup of tea but they are way more consistent as the weather changes. So.....adjust the reed until it is what you want and then seal it. My attempts in the past were olive oil and cork grease. I believe it changed the tone(not improve). Now I use Forestone reeds and will not try to seal them.
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2009-12-19 19:40)
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Author: Pappy
Date: 2009-12-20 01:54
Apparently, Stubbins recommended using printed newsprint to seal the back of reeds - and he said that he strongly preferred the Cleveland Plain Dealer for some reason.
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-12-20 05:20
Check out Tom Ridenour's latest YouTube video, this one about reed warping.
Now there are two of us I know of who would never soak their reeds and who don't think much of "polishing" the underside.
(I still can't stand his jokes, though.)
B.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-12-20 14:45
I guess I'm still trying to figure out just why reeds go bad. I can imagine that "salts" in the water they grow in are a factor and that they vary. Is it that once the salts are dissolved out the reed loses its stiffness. The newspaper thing is interesting since "in the old days" before they started adding plastic to the paper the paper contained "sulfite" which some of us used to stop bleeding when shaving...homemade styptic pencil. Today it wouldn't work. Perhaps there is a way to remove whatever is in the reed "pores" and replace it with a polymer which could then be cured with a dentists curing light. I have tried artists' clear acrylic varnish but it eventually softens and "deadens" the reed.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-20 15:02
bmcgar, I'm sure you know by now that I don't approve of soaking a reed, my website has an article on that in the reed page section about why you should never allow the bark half of the reed to ever get wet. I know some people don't agree but in all the years I've been following that practice I've never, that is NEVER, had a single reed warp, that is not seal on the mouthpiece. I do think it's good to seal the bottom of the reed though but not with anything other than clean paper. I use the back of my sand paper because it's handy and strong and it doesn't leave anything on the bottom of the reed except a sealing. I only do that for about 5 seconds. If anyone wants to use newspaper the least they should do is use the NY Times, lets have some class on the bottom of your reed, and don't use a political article, no need for disagreement here. ESP
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-12-20 18:47
BobD -
I think the reason reeds go bad is that vibration breaks down the fibers. When they no longer bend evenly or come back quickly to a straight position, the reed loses tone quality and response.
Ken Shaw
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-20 21:30
One source I read says that it is primarily bacteria growth that is responsible for "reed death." The bacteria don't feed on the reed itself, but rather, on sugars in saliva. The bacteria basically grow in the xylem of the reed and on its surface. The bacteria add mass to the reed and interfere with the reed's range of torsional and bending motion.
Killing the bacteria doesn't really help, because the bacteria attach themselves to the reed. (So killing them just results in a bunch of dead bacteria causing the same problems.) The author does suggest that keeping reeds cool and dry when not in use should slow down the bacterial growth. (It doesn't kill them, because they simply become dormant in the absence of water.)
The same source says that the degradation and loss of hemicellulose from the reed (possibly due to alkaline ions in saliva) is what is responsible for "break in" of reeds.
http://etd.ohiolink.edu/view.cgi?acc_num=osu1210865836
Post Edited (2009-12-20 21:31)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-12-21 00:57
What amazes me is that, for all the different theories about what causes reeds to deteriorate, I've never read an article by anyone who had actually sat down with some reeds and a microscope or whatever chemical reagents it would take to demonstrate what the real explanation is. You can read clarinetist after clarinetist (and I suppose you can substitute oboist, bassoonist or saxophonist) describing what he/she *imagines* is going on (based mostly on what reeds feel like - how they play over time and how they have been handled over their playing life), but seemingly no real observations made by people competent to make them in a lab setting.
Karl
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-12-21 01:00
kdk wrote:
> What amazes me is that, for all the different theories about
> what causes reeds to deteriorate, I've never read an article by
> anyone who had actually sat down with some reeds and a
> microscope or whatever chemical reagents it would take to
> demonstrate what the real explanation is.
Fernando Silveira wrote his doctoral thesis on this very subject.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-21 01:26
kdk wrote:
<<What amazes me is that, for all the different theories about what causes reeds to deteriorate, I've never read an article by anyone who had actually sat down with some reeds and a microscope or whatever chemical reagents it would take to demonstrate what the real explanation is.>>
Click the link in my above post--it's a doctoral dissertation on the biology, chemistry, and physics of clarinet reeds. Although it's a DMA dissertation, the author collaborated with a number of scientists to do some pretty sophisticated laboratory study of reeds, including chemical analysis, examination under an electron microscope, computer simulation of physical behavior, etc. It's a great read (both in terms of content and in terms of size--it's over 400 pages).
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-21 03:32
I have to go with Ken Shaw, vibration breaks down a reed more than anything else. I do agree though that the elements in the saliva can contribute to them breaking down sooner rather than later which is why I suggest, in my reed articles, that you use water and not saliva to wet your reed. I also suggest that you don't soak wet them for more than just a few seconds because even water can weaken the cane. As far as bacteria goes, the only time I've ever cleaned off a reed was when I've had it for an extremely long time and it's become a bit dirty from being used so much though that's pretty rare for me. I have had bass clarinet reeds last me for many months using it on a regular basis, I posted something earlier about my miracle bass reed that lasted me nine months using it for everything rehearsal and concert, and I've had clarinet reeds last for as much as a year or two in rotation. I honestly can say that I don't believe I've ever had a reed go on me from anything other than playing it too much over time once it's broken in and in my rotation for regular use. Maybe my bacteria are all good guys. ESP
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-12-21 03:37
Ed Palanker said: " I honestly can say that I don't believe I've ever had a reed go on me from anything other than playing it too much over time once it's broken in and in my rotation for regular use. Maybe my bacteria are all good guys."
Perhaps it's all of that wine, Ed?! ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
Just Me
http://woodwindforum.ning.com/
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-12-21 15:46
Turns out Fernando's paper is in Portuguese, which I can't read. I've asked him if there's an English translation available, but I assume there isn't or he wouldn't have asked if I could read the Portuguese.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-12-21 15:48
I've downloaded it - it's a voluminous piece of work. Navigating it on a computer screen is a little tedious. I'm afraid that if I search for specific terms, that's all I'll get, so I'd prefer to read more generally what he wrote. As I spend time with it, I may be able to locate whatever is really relevant to reed deterioration and print it out so I can read it somewhere more relaxing than my computer desk chair. :-)
Thanks,
Karl
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-21 17:14
kdk wrote:
> As I
> spend time with it, I may be able to locate whatever is really
> relevant to reed deterioration and print it out so I can read
> it somewhere more relaxing than my computer desk chair. :-)
There's a section on reed degradation that starts on p. 232, which is where I was pulling the information on the bacteria.
The most prevalent bacteria they found, by the way, was staphylococcus epidermidis, which is the generally harmless bacteria that lives on/in pretty much everyone's skin and mouth. When I was in high school, my biology teacher grew bacteria cultures from my clarinet mouthpiece and the mouthpiece of a trumpet-playing friend of mine. He also identified the bacteria (in both mouthpieces) as a staphylococcus bacteria (although he didn't pinpoint the exact species, like the pathologist cited in this paper did).
Another interesting finding of this author is on p. 232, where he says that, "contrary to folklore, the clarinet reed material does not wear out as it ages." He examined unused and used reeds under a scanning electron microscope and found "the same number of microcracks in the cell wall matrix of both."
Ed wrote:
<<I honestly can say that I don't believe I've ever had a reed go on me from anything other than playing it too much over time once it's broken in and in my rotation for regular use. Maybe my bacteria are all good guys.>>
That's the way this bacteria works, apparently. They live on sugars in saliva and go dormant in a dry environment. They only start to grow when you play on the reed (i.e., give them water and food via saliva). The more you play on the reed, the more the bacteria grow. So while the reed does degrade more the more you play on it, it isn't the playing, per se, that makes the reed age, it's the fact that you wet it and put it in your mouth. Of course, you and I, as players, can't tell the difference because we don't have the scientific equipment to do so--all we can observe is that the more we use the reed, the more it ages.
Also, the problem with these bacteria is not that they destroy or eat the reed, because according to this paper they don't--it's more that they add additional mass/weight to the reed (so there are no "good" bacteria here--it's the mere fact that that the bacteria are there to clog up the reed that's the problem). Of course, because of the law of conservation of matter, you have to give the bacteria something to eat before they can start increasing in mass, so unless you feed them (by playing on the reed), they won't grow and continue to degrade the reed.
It might help that you wet your reeds in water rather than wetting them in your mouth, because saliva contains the sugar that feeds the bacteria. If you don't feed them as much, they have less opportunity to grow. You also avoid depositing other "salival artifacts" that way (which is also discussed as a contributing factor to reed degradation in this paper).
Post Edited (2009-12-21 17:16)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-12-21 18:59
My experience with worn-out reeds is that, compared with new ones, they are stiffer and have greater resistance to flexing. They are also more brittle, so that if I thin the reed down until it has the same stiffness as a new one, the tip splinters easily. In either case, the tone is worse.
I'm certainly willing to be convinced about bacteria, and I'm printing out p. 232 etc. of the dissertation . However, as I wrote above, I've tried cutting off nearly the entire vamp and re-profiling the reed from material that's never been exposed to moisture, yet the reed still doesn't work.
Fernando Silvera has been a regular on the board. Perhaps he can let us have his comments.
Ken Shaw
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-21 19:22
Ken Shaw wrote:
> However, as I
> wrote above, I've tried cutting off nearly the entire vamp and
> re-profiling the reed from material that's never been exposed
> to moisture, yet the reed still doesn't work.
That's interesting. I suppose one possible explanation for that might be that although the other half of the reed does not get immersed in liquid, the xylem within the reed might act to wick the moisture and bacteria up from the vamp to the bark end of the reed, but I don't really know--that's just a hypothesis.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-12-21 20:18
Ken Shaw wrote:
> ...I've tried cutting off nearly the entire vamp and
> re-profiling the reed from material that's never been exposed
> to moisture, yet the reed still doesn't work.
>
Aside from the strong possibility that even that cane has been exposed to some moisture during break-in and playing, I'm not sure that what's left of a reed after you've cut off "nearly the entire vamp" has the same leverage effects as a full length reed. I wonder whether or not even a new reed you do that to will work. Have you tried it for comparison's sake?
Karl
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-12-21 21:51
kdk -
Yes. When I was learning (from Kal Opperman) to make reeds by hand, I messed up a bunch of them. I would repeatedly cut about half an inch off the tip end and re-cut the vamp. They worked fine, even when there was only half an inch of bark left to put the ligature on.
Ken Shaw
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