 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hat
Date: 2000-11-30 13:50
I hate to have to inform you of this again, but my stolen bass clarinet has reappeared on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=514121743
Prospective customers beware.
-HAT
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Author: Fred
Date: 2000-11-30 21:09
I truly sympathize with anyone that has been burglarized . . . been there, done that (victim . . . not victee).
So, what is the proper way of dealing with items like this? If the horn was insured, presumably you have been "compensated" and the insurance company is out some dough. If the buyer is not the thief, but bought the item on the used market, he has an investment also. I am no lawyer, and don't know the rules pertaining to disposition of legally obtained but previously stolen items. Can anyone speak authoritatively on this? I recognize that there may be both legal issues and moral issues involved here. But this is an important issue for us to deal with, because we all face the possibility of becoming party to an issue like this anytime we buy used merchandise on the secondary market.
Opinions?
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-11-30 21:17
A sad series of events "post theft". Yet it would appear that this matter is now between the police auction buyer & the insurance company, if the latter has any interest in the matter. We were previously informed that all "involved" parties Iinsurance co., police, etc. had been contacted. Again, a sad thing having previous instruments stolen, but now I think we must all put it behind us. mw
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Author: Rich Gordley
Date: 2000-11-30 21:24
All this points out is that nobody involved with this could be trusted. The NY police could not be trusted to return the recovered instrument to its rightful owner, the insurance company could not be trusted to try and recover its losses and not pass the loss along to its policy holders, and we all know that the buyer could not be trusted to act in a gentlemanly manner.
Nobody ever went wrong underestimating the level of civilization of the bulk of the human race.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 2000-11-30 22:31
ron b -
Dave Hattner is telling us about it to warn us against bidding on it.
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Author: JIM
Date: 2000-12-01 00:18
HEY GUYS AND GALS,
#1) LEGALLY, A STOLEN ITEM, WHICH HAS BEEN RECOVERED BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY IS NO LONGER DEEMED TO BE STOLEN.
#2) THE PREVIOUS OWNER WAS REIMBURSED $5,000.00 BY HIS INSURANCE COMPANY FOR AN INSTRUMENT HE ONLY THINKS I MAY HAVE.
#3) THE SERIAL NUMBER IS KNOWN ONLY TO ME, SO YOU ARE JUST PLAIN HARASSING ME.
#4) CAR, MOTORCYCLE, BOAT, TRUCK DEALERS ETC., AND DEALERS OF GENERAL MERCHANDISE ROUTINELY PURCHASE GOODS FROM THESE AND MANY OTHER TYPES OF AUCTIONS. I / WE DO NOT SET OUT TO SCREW ANYONE, BUT SOMETIMES THINGS DO GET STICKY. HOWEVER, IT DOESN'T CHANGE THIS FACT...ONCE PURCHASED THROUGH A LEGALLY SANCTIONED AUCTION, THE ITEMS ARE LEGALLY OURS.
#5) THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ARE NOT, REPEAT NOT, CULPABLE. THE MANPOWER NECESSARY TO CONTACT EVERY OWNER OF A LOST OR STOLEN ITEM WOULD CERTAINLY STRIP EVERY POLICEMAN FROM THE STREETS AND NONE OF US WOULD BE SAFE IN OUR BEDS. HOWEVER, THEY DO ALERT THE CITIZENRY THROUGH PUBLIC NOTICE IN MAJOR NEWSPAPERS, REGARDING THE PENDING SALE. AND WHAT IF AN ITEM WAS LOST OR STOLEN IN NY AND RECOVERED IN CALIFORNIA......???????
#7) INSURANCE COMPANIES PAY PEOPLE TO SEARCH OUT THESE ITEMS AND IF THEY DID NOT, TOO BAD FOR THEM. THEY CAN REPO A CAR, IF FOUND ON THE STREET, BUT THEY CANNOT ENTER A PERSONS HOME OR TREAD UPON PRIVATE PROPERTY UNINVITED. NOT YET ANYWAY
#8) ALL THE ALERTS AND NAME CALLING, EMAILS AND PHONE CALLS MEAN ZIP TO ME. BEING RETIRED, I'VE GOT THE TIME AND ITS KIND OF FUN. HOWVER, I SUSPECT THAT SOME OF YOU NEED TO DEVELOP A MEANINGFUL LIFE.
#9) I GAVE UP MY MODESTLY SUCCESSFUL WORKING INVOLVEMENT IN THE "ARTS" A LONG TIME AGO. I GOT A JOB AND RAISED MY FAMILY.
#10) I WOULD BET THE FARM THAT, WHEN COMBINED, ALL OF YOUR LESS THAN MORAL, CIVIL AND RIGHTEOUS THOUGHTS, WORDS AND DEEDS, HAVING SIPHONED OFF AN APPROPRIATE AMOUNT OF THE FIRES OF HELL, WOULD MELT THE POLAR CAPS. PLEASE PREACH ELSEWHERE.
#11) ANNIE LENOIR.....I ENJOYED YOUR THANKSGIVING DAY PERFORMANCE AT THE VILLAGE NURSING HOME. SMALL WORLD.
#12) THOSE OF YOU WHO MENTIONED THAT THE INSURANCE COMPANY IS THE ONE THAT GOT RIPPED OFF ARE 100% CORRECT. NO WAY IS ANY USED SELMER PARIS MODEL 33 Bb BASS CLARINET WORTH FIVE GRAND.
JIM
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Author: Todd H.
Date: 2000-12-01 00:47
JIM wrote:"...PLEASE PREACH ELSEWHERE...".
!!!!!!!!!
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Author: J. Butler
Date: 2000-12-01 01:19
I agree with Mark. Jim does have legal posession of the property and the insurance company has paid off on the policy. The insurance settlement could have been used to buy another instrument, correct? So, I may not be "getting" something here, but I just don't "get it", what is the problem.....? Let's end the hostilities, please.
John
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Author: JIM
Date: 2000-12-01 01:50
Todd H,
So you can read. Oh, I get it, that was meant to be clever. However, stating facts
is not preaching. Wasted your education did ya??
JIM
Mark,
The problem is that spoiled brat cry babies come in all ages. Or, perhaps its a smoke screen and he's playing an insurance scam.
JIM
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Author: Bob Arney
Date: 2000-12-01 02:59
Boy! This is great. Here we have the vitrolic "Dump on Jim" syndrome and on the Klarinet List we have "The Tony Wars." Sure as heck beats the "Soaps." Darn, I'm going to have to double my web time again.
Merry Christmas to Y'all
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Author: Nate Zeien
Date: 2000-12-01 04:18
William, this is NOT an appropriate place to ask that. Certainly not under this thread, and it would be better placed in the classifieds, anyway. Somewhat humourous nonetheless... -- Nate Zeien
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-01 05:03
William, the subject of which A to buy ought to be a (great) separate conversation. The lower end Buffet & Yamaha's earn high grades, as well as the available pro models. However, the Yamaha pro's warrant a serious look since they sell new for about 1/2 of what Buffet & other pro models do.
How much money to go on the Fund Dtive???
mw
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Author: mike
Date: 2000-12-01 17:11
Jim: At least 1 lawyer who practices in New York stated that legally, the insurance company might have a good claim of ownership for that instrument. Whether they choose to act on this is entirely up to them.
Given that you know this, why not contact the insurace company directly? I doubt they will want the instrument back; it would probably cost them more to pay you your expenses than they could recover by reselling it. At this point, they've already paid out to David Hattner who has bought a new instrument, so I don't know what else they would do with it.
And in regard to (#7), I think a previous poster tried to make this point: if I come into possession of an instrument such as this, and this becomes known --- ie. perhaps my repairman maintains a list of stolen instruments and discovers that mine is on the list when I drop it off for some work --- what recourse do I have? It is important that a legal chain of ownership can be established in this (granted unlikely) event.
Most of us have heard the story of a very expensive bassoon that had been stolen and then recovered some 15 years later as it had ended up in the possession of a school which has sent it in for routine repairs.
Perhaps the bill of sale from the police auction provides this. That plus a letter from the insurance company would be unassailable.
As for your point #12, it depends on how the insurance policy was written. If it was written for the full replacement value for a Selmer Bass Cl. to low C, then $5 grand is about what it would take. And I think David Hattner lost some mouthpieces and accessories. Pro mouthpieces are expensive (a new Fobes or Bay will set you back about $200) and these "little" things add up quickly.
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Author: Kontragirl
Date: 2000-12-01 21:18
This really bothers me. A guy has his bass clarinet stolen and the guy who obtains it comes out and says, "Na na boo boo, it's mine now." I'm sure under the law it is, but if I found out a bass clarinet I was trying to sell was stolen, I would feel horrible.
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Author: Carl R.
Date: 2000-12-02 03:38
Jim, I've followed this story for a while now, and I have to say you remind me of the old Timex watch slogan, "It takes a licking and keeps on ticking!" All this and you're still standing. I know I wouldn't be able to take it. Don't you get tired of defending your position after a while? If all you say is accurate, then why explain anything? You should have a clear conscience, and that would mean at this point it is more of a vendetta of David Hattner 's than anything else. I have to tell you, though, honestly, the bass clarinet really has a stigma attached to it now, "recovered stolen merchandise," and we even have someone claiming to be the original owner! Much too risky for me.
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Author: Tracey
Date: 2000-12-02 08:32
Now I know how not to act when I get older. Adults expect us to act wonderfully all the time, and they wonder why we teens don't. Do what I say, but not as I do? Hmm...
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-02 21:13
Lets put this behind us, OK. I vote for "end of thread". mw
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-12-05 00:55
I vote for, "Don't bid on it." Has anyone (other than the seller) verified that this police auction ever happened? Whatever the legalities of the situation may (or may not...) be, my conscience would hold its nose and choke at the thought of doing business under circumstances as questionable as these.
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