 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-12-17 13:21
Ok, who has experience playing with these? I saw a very brief description extolling the benefits over other synthetic pads in that "you can control firmness." Does this mean there are different "numbers" of the same size? Is a "soft" more like bladder...........less noise? Is the "hard" more like cork..........better seal, more "pop" to the sound?
.......................thanks,
..................................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-12-17 16:07
The Omni pads don't work exactly likw that. They have a hard backing, a foam and a sealing layer. The firmness is generally determined by the proportion of the backing and foam. The exception is a newer slightly softer foam that some people prefer for larger pads.
>> Is a "soft" more like bladder...........less noise? <<
Not exactly. Bladder is not just one firmness that is always soft, or softer than cork. Bladder pads vary a lot in firmness depending on the type and model. Some bladder pads are pretty much as hard as cork (or almost).
I personally don't really like cork pads. My experience with Omni pads is they are not as noisy as cork. That is with the regular foam, I haven't tried the softer foam yet. The type of noise (as opposed to the level of noise) is different from cork and from bladder, maybe somewhere in the middle. I like them, and especailly don't like the type of noise from cork pads.
>> Is the "hard" more like cork..........better seal, more "pop" to the sound? <<
There is no difference in seal. They would seal great regardless of firmness, unless you use very hard pads without having the accuracy needed to use them, then you will likely have leaks. There are pretty much standard sizes (i.e. backing/foam proportion) that are used the most depending on depth of the key cup, alignment, etc.
I've tried these pads and just now starting to use them.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-12-19 17:03
Dear Clarnibass,
Thanks for the response. These pads do sound very interesting and I am being promised a full test by a local repair person.
The issue of sound though may need clarification (that I may not be able to give!!!!). My very favorite aspect of cork is the clear, (for lack of a better term) LOUD, sound that I can produce on a horn with cork pads. I get the opposite effect with Valentinos and always attributed this differense to the "sponginess" of the Valentinos eating up the reflection of sound coming out of the tone holes beneath them. Since then I have encountered equally LOUD, clear sound out of the Lucien Deluxe pads (used by Yamaha) and the ONLY similarity to cork is that they are F-L-A-T.
Is this the answer? I don't know. And to throw more in the mix there are pads by Stroebinger (sp?) that are convex (domed).........do these have a fuzzy sound to them.......I don't know - never worked with them !!!
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-12-19 17:30
If you search for Kraus pad clarinet on Google Patents, there is one APPLICATION for patent. which may be viewable on USPTO applications site. I'll run it down when I have time. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-12-19 20:14
Taking a quick look at this well-written pat. appl. , Claims 1 and 13 may be the most informative, but the words "backer" and "sloping" and the detailed construction/materials may be of help here. Interesting, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: bmcgar ★2017
Date: 2009-12-20 05:37
Someday I hope to hear performances of the same clarinetist playing the same piece on the same clarinet in the same room, but with cork pads on the upper joint in one recording and Gortex, bladder, Valentino, or Straubinger pads on the clarinet in the other (well set up, of course).
My guess is that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but that if I could, the difference would be trivial.
Like so much of clarinet setup and equipment, often what we hear and feel as players isn't heard (and, of course, felt) by listeners more than a couple feet away.
Oh wad some power the giftie gie us
To hear oursel’s as others hear us!
It wad frae monie a blunder free us,
And foolish notion.
(With apologies to the memory of Robert Burns)
B.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-12-20 08:03
Paul, it is not really possible to explain about the sound like that. What you describe sounds like differences in clarinets and their condition, or sometimes the difference in feel of different pads. A player should realize that differences they hear or feel might not be for the reasons they think.
For example you found the same from cork pads and a specific type of bladder pads, Lucien Deluxe made by Music Center in Italy. In contrast, the bladder pads from Music Center are some of my favorites, and cork pads are some of my least favorite.
So I can't tell you what to expect from Omni pads. I can say that when I installed them I didn't have any problem with tone, response or anything. They felt (to the fingers, their type of noise, etc.) slightly different from the pads I usually use which are bladder pads made by Music Center, the same place that makes Lucien Deluxe you mentioned. But I liked them. I don't especailly like the feel of Valentino pads by the way.
I recommend you read all the information about Omni pads on the Kraus Music website. Of course it is advertisement but IME Ed Kraus is a very honest person.
By the way more than a few repairers report constantly seeing leaks on clarinets with Valentino pads, especially on the bigger lower keys. Some give logical reasons for why this happens. Maybe the problems you found with Valentino were caused by leaks. Although I can say that I've also seen some clarinets completely with Valentino pads that didn't leak at all.
Post Edited (2009-12-20 11:16)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-12-20 14:25
Well, I can address the leaking of the Valentinos (and others under comparison). NO, there were NO leaks. I suction and positive test before playing. I just find the movement from note to note (particularly side keys) to be "sloppy" with Valentinos.
As for sound, what I will say to the nay sayers is that I HAVE had one particular clarinet first in all standard bladder, then done in cork and found a HUGE difference in..........."the comfort of perceived sound." By that I mean, "why would you want to FEEL less than the most comfortable when you play?" Wouldn't this "best" feel give you the best advantage even if somenone in the audience can't hear the difference?
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-12-20 15:13
Maybe what I meant wasn't clear so I'll clarify.
Re the leaks of Valentinos: One of the problems some repairers found with Valentino pads is that they don't remain level during installation. In addition Valentino pads are generally soft enough to overcome this and other slight accuracy problems. What this means is that although they might not leak when checking with a feeler or light when held or sprung closed, or with the suction of blowing tests, it might take more movement from when they touch the body to when the pad is sealing completely. Doesn't always happen, but it's possible.
Kraus claims Omni pads solve this problem and I think has a part talking about legato on their website. My experience is that I didn't have any problem with them with this issue.
Re sound: The problem is not that you feel or sound different with different pads, that's entirely possible. It is trying to speak about it, especially on a forum, in supposedly objective terms, etc.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-12-20 17:27
Dear Clarnibass,
I see what you mean, kinda like the Posture Pedic Bed foam - it conforms....eventually. That makes sense.
Much gets lost or added in the process of trying to describe something. What I may have been getting at a little earlier is that perhaps it's not the nature of the material as much as the shape of the object over the tone hole that makes the difference (for me). The flat surface of the cork and the Lucien pads "may" allow sound (air) to refect out better (if only proximally in a way that we as the player can hear and respond to). Though I still would argue audible changes for everyone (player and audience alike) the effect on the player's experience DOES have an effect on the overall performance. A happy, involved performer comes off that way, even to generic audience member. More importantly, an unhappy performer who is concentrating on technical aspects and not musical ones is even MORE obvious to even the least involved member of the viewing public.
Just a thought.
......................Paul Aviles
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-12-21 15:13
Paul, your thots are interting, at least to me, I would like to try a set on my old HS Selmer A. Are these widely available now, and ?prob? a bit costly ?? I copied off the 13 pages [on USPTO Pat Applications, #20050235807 for search ] and on a bit of skimming this disclosure, have found only general mention of materials , but much discussion of shapes of seating ?plastics?, backings etc and their function/cooperation. Thots? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-12-21 18:26
Dear Don,
Wish I had any practical experience with the Omnipad. I am going off the recommendation of a repair tech whose typical overhaul consists of all cork on the top and Straubinger on the bottom - this configuration is a costly overhaul, mainly from his words, because the Straubinger's are expensive. He then quoted me the same "lower" overhaul price based on using all Valentinos or Omnipads.
My main focus was to get a DURABLE pad that was as impervious to hygromatic and temperature variables as possible for horns that would have to endure conditions that most of us only hear stories about. Personally, I prefer cork on my horn, though I could be swayed by new technology that proves itself to be truly an ADVANCEMENT.
I am less leary of the Straubingers over price, as I stated above, than the idea that the pads are curved outward making me inclined to believe (without testing these out either I might add) they MAY not sound the way I want them to sound.
If it's not too late to throw out one further question of my own, I had encountered a black foam pad some years ago that had many fine qualities but one VERY fatal flaw. The foam was a petroleum based material and in the presence of a like petroleum based solvent (KEY OIL) they would dissolve.
Does anyone know of Omnipads do this????
I am looking forward to an actual audition of a clarinet with Omnipads in the near future and will not hesitate to share my thoughts at that time.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-12-21 19:13
The Omni pads are sopposed to be very resistant like you need. I don't have years of experience with them though so I can't say. They seem promising.
I agree with what you said about how the player feels etc. but it sounds like you are trying to understand from replies here whether you will like how the Omni pads sound. Well... you like both cork pads and the Lucien Deluxe bladder pads. I like those bladder pads but not cork pads, but I like Omni pads.
For your other question. I just put way-too-much petroleum oil on an Omni pad and it didn't seem like it did anything to it.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2009-12-22 22:43
Why not contact Ed himself? He's a very approachable guy. He only sells to those in the repair trade but I'm sure he would take time to talk with you about them.
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