 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-12-19 21:54
I'm playing with a mix of symphony, college, and amateur musicians in a 27-piece orchestra for our church choir cantata. There are 2 clarinets, me (on 2nd part), and another church member on 1st part. She's a well-qualified player and is better than me, but her instrument is between 5-10 cents flat when pushed all the way in.
I assume I should tune to the concertmaster's pitch, however there are a couple of exposed parts where she and I play together, both in unison and harmony. These passages don't sound very good, as the two of us aren't in tune with each other.
What to do?
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-12-19 22:07
Ya know...my son has a C-13 that has a shorter barrel than my R-13. Maybe it'll fit her Greenline. I think if I really do that, she'll think I'm obnoxious.
Post Edited (2009-12-19 22:10)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-12-19 22:44
Tune to the first clarinet. If you're both together, but out of tune with the rest of the orchestra, it's the first's fault. If you're out of tune to the first, it's your fault.
In any case, two minutes after you tune, everyone's pitch will have wandered so much that you'll be adjusting to whomever you're playing with, not to mention to match the harmonic context.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-20 01:20
Bluesparkle wrote:
Quote:
What to do?
Ask somebody to turn up the heat, perhaps? When it's cold, winds go flat and strings go sharp.
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-12-20 01:32
I suppose I should clarify that the concertmaster, in this case, is the oboe, not the first clarinet.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-20 01:47
Is this a band or an orchestra? Concertmaster is normally the principal first violin.
Karl
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-12-20 10:56
Perhaps I'm using the phrase "concertmaster" incorrectly. It's an orchestra. The oboe provides the tuning note.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-12-20 12:39
Blue,
Have you said anything to the person playing first clarinet? If "she's a well-qualified player..." it would seem that this person would want to know about the pitch issue.
If you have spoken about intonation problems, it would seem that the barrel might solve things (could be reeds or MP). Then you deal with the conductor privately about the issue of the tuning note and who the now-in-tune clarinets should match.
Personally, I am not shy about telling a standmate that the "pitch is off and we need to get it it fixed." I work very hard on intonation and have three clarinets that are really wonderful (one a TR 147 BTW).
HRL
PS Use the tuner with both of you in a quiet practice area. No fair peaking at what the indication is, have the other player call the numbers. Also, once you are sure the instrument is capable make sure the player is similarly qualified (it's all in the ears).
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-20 13:18
Hank Lehrer wrote:
> Blue,
>
> Have you said anything to the person playing first clarinet? If
> "she's a well-qualified player..." it would seem that this
> person would want to know about the pitch issue.
>
It would seem that a "well-qualified" player would know without being told that there's a pitch issue. Maybe she is sure enough she's in tune generally that she's decided not to change anything but is shy or for some other reason is not willing to bring it up herself.
My suggestion would be during a break or other convenient time to say to her "we aren't in tune in this passage. Can we try it together and see what's wrong?" This is standard procedure in any orchestra I play in - the conductor doesn't expect to have to take the orchestra's time to tune individual players.
Besides, we (whoever the other player is) often both may think it's the other who's out of tune. We're just looking for a compromise that will work - it doesn't have to be winner-loser. Once we're working separately away from the orchestra, whatever may be contributing to the problem can be discussed.
Karl
Karl
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-12-20 19:45
During dress rehearsal, I suggested that "we were out of tune with each other." At a break, we got out the tuner, and that's when it was confirmed that she was flat when pushed all the way in. We'd had a decent amount of time to warm up, so neither of us figured it would get any better. Neither of us play professionally and don't have extra barrels, mouthpieces, etc. to make any changes on the spot.
To complicate the matter, my husband is the conductor, so mentioning the problem to him only makes me look like the nagging wife. I already had to suggest that we be moved in front of the French horns, rather than behind, (where we couldn't hear a thing), so that was a more important battle at the moment.
So, we performed in both services today. I'm not sure that we were ever really in tune, but the congregation loved it and that's all that matters in the end.
So...back to my original question...does one tune with one's "section" in an effort to blend with like instruments, or does one stick with the tuning note provided?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-20 20:05
You need to be in tune with whatever is most prominent. In your case it will mean guessing a little and pulling out to come down to the 1st player when you need to play something exposed with her and pushing back in when you're playing with the rest of the orchestra in mainly tutti passages or when the rest of the woodwinds are playing. If you've already established (and she has accepted) that the other clarinetist is flat in a separate tuning session, then she can't really be put out that you're doing that - if anything she should be grateful.
What I don't understand in this whole situation is why, if she's a competent player and you've established with a tuner that her whole instrument is flat - not just to you but to where the orchestra is tuning, she isn't doing more to try to solve the problem from her end.
Karl
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-12-20 21:44
Glad you had a successful performance in spite of the tuning issues. Now might be the time for her to call Tom Ridenour, while he is having a barrel sale, and have her order a shorter barrel for her clarinet. They work quite well, and are reasonable priced, to boot. Or she could spend several times the amount on barrels with more snob appeal. ')
Jeff
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-12-20 21:57
> So...back to my original question...does one tune with one's "section" in an
> effort to blend with like instruments, or does one stick with the tuning note
> provided?
Hmm, our director would (not literally) smack our hands if we started to wiggle barrels, tuning slides and the like for anything less than 10 cents or thereabouts. He claims that we should be able to blend in despite minor tuning issues, lipping it up and down, also across sections, because 10 minutes into the concert we'd start to diverge anyway, and we must learn to hear it, and we must learn to deal with it.
Just bring bring a shorter barrel with you next time, or offer to swap barrels just to see how it affects things. Suggest to meet in the middle when there's a crucial duet. Heck, it's not about pride and musicianship, it's about how to interact professionally. You're sitting in the same orchestra, the same team. Concentrate on the common goal, not the individual differences.
--
Ben
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-21 00:46
tictactux wrote:
>
> Hmm, our director would (not literally) smack our hands if we
> started to wiggle barrels, tuning slides and the like for
> anything less than 10 cents or thereabouts. He claims that we
> should be able to blend in despite minor tuning issues, lipping
> it up and down, also across sections, because 10 minutes into
> the concert we'd start to diverge anyway, and we must learn to
> hear it, and we must learn to deal with it.
>
Does this director really want you to "lip" through an entire rehearsal or performance when you hear that you've "diverged" enough to require that every note be adjusted? Or that you confirm whether or not you're actually 10 cents sharp before you decide what to do?
Good players hear that they're out of tune and re-tune as needed - with embouchure and fingering adjustments if the discrepancy is manageable or their barrels, tuning slides, etc. if necessary. You can shade a note here or there, or even an entire passage if you can fix the discrepancy with embouchure or fingering changes and still keep control. But if your instrument's overall pitch is not in tune with whatever you need to be in tune with, you're much better off making the adjustment with your instrument - it's more consistent and avoids distortion of sound that large embouchure adjustments or using alternate fingerings can cause. You'll still have to shade specific notes, because no instrument is perfectly in tune on every note.
I exaggerated when I said it would be a guess - that's what rehearsal is for. You have to do a little experimenting (which starts during that one-on-one session away from the orchestra) to find out how much adjustment is needed. If you can do it comfortably with non-instrument adjustments, all the better, but if the "divergence" is enough to make those adjustments uncomfortable, there's nothing wrong with a little tug on the barrel.
I'll repeat, in case it gets lost in this side issue of *how* to tune, that you need to be in tune with whatever is most prominent. That will probably change many times within a given piece and certainly within a rehearsal or performance. So you don't pick one or the other - the oboe's tuning note, or the prevailing string pitch or the rest of your section, and stick with it unflinchingly. You tune to what's important at any given moment. If you're playing an exposed passage, you need to be in tune with whoever else is playing the passage with you. If it happens to be a piccolo, the pitch problems may be very different from those that come from playing with the second bassoon. You need to adjust as needed.
It's important that each player hear and adjust for intonation problems to the best of his or her ability. *How* it's done really is not something the conductor should meddle with.
Besides, the conductor is Bluesparkle's husband. He wouldn't dare smack her hand, figuratively or otherwise. :-)
Karl
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-12-21 07:48
> Does this director really want you to "lip" through an entire rehearsal or
> performance when you hear that you've "diverged" enough to require that
> every note be adjusted? Or that you confirm whether or not you're actually
> 10 cents sharp before you decide what to do?
Certainly not. But we go through this during an intonation and tuning session at the beginning of a rehearsal. And it's amazing what can be done with a bit of embouchure alone, it did wonders to our in-tuneness as an ensemble.
What we do during the performace is none of his business as long as it sounds right. :-)
--
Ben
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