 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: simonN
Date: 2009-12-11 07:48
Hi guys,
I was fooling around in a practice room with two different mouthpieces... I'm not working on weber and was only playing to get a feel for sound and flexibility of tone... the phrasing or nuance doesn't really make sense so please don't mention it please! both recordings are played in a different style as well, but again... this is just about tone and flexibility etc... reeds are not ideal for either and can be better because they are newish.. Anyway please tell me which one you prefer and why! thank you!
http://www.filedropper.com/ste-007
or
http://www.filedropper.com/ste-008_1
Post Edited (2009-12-11 07:49)
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-12-11 10:50
The recording's not /quite/ up to it but...
First one. More richness & complexity to my ear.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-11 14:52
My opinion on which sound is "better" is irrelevant to what you should be considering. First of all, you should try to record/play the same excerpt with the exact same style, not just random whatever. Second, you should forget the "best" sound and go with which mpc allows you to play most easily with regards to musical expression, articulation and intonation. I would suspect that either mouthpiece (again, without having actually listened) would produce an acceptable tone quality given a reed that is properly adjusted to its lay. Everyone has a different sound, it's what they *do* with it that is most important.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-12-11 15:16
I also prefer the 1st mouthpiece. The 2nd sounds a bit more flexible, but I feel that the sound of the first is richer and stays full when you play louder. The 2nd mouthpiece loses quality in the louder dynamics and the sound spreads a bit.
Are you going to tell us what these mouthpieces are?
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-12-11 15:32
I don't think you are doing it right. It's about what works best for you and make things the most easiest for YOU. I feel the same way as Larry Combs that is I can change mouthpiece/reed/barrel/ligature because it give me something that I miss. I have changed mouthpiece and my teachers(at least 3 teachers) have not noticed it. I often alter between 3-4 ligatures to suite the mood I'm in and so on but in the end after couple of days I just sound like me. If you want to alter your sound a lot then you should change something in the way you play and such but equipment is just to make it easier for you to get the "sound" and musical goal you are after. I've even heard a major symphony player tell me that he do not hear much or in some cases no difference at all if his fellow player is playing on Eaton,Rossi,Buffet Festvial,R13 or Elite clarinets.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-12-11 18:06
I agree with Iceland and William in principle. Of course the tiny tonal differences between the 2 samples that Simon sent are far less important than what works best and easiest for him, and it is much more important what he does with the music.
However, when I'm selecting a new mouthpiece I would play for a couple of colleagues to see if there is one particular mouthpiece that they prefer, and to get confirmation on my own choice. Simon's decision to post samples is an interesting idea. It could be completely useless if he gets 10 votes for one mouthpiece and 10 votes for the other (which is what I would have expected). But so far it seems like all of us who have taken the effort to download his samples and listen to them have preferred the same mouthpiece.
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Author: simonN
Date: 2009-12-11 18:17
I'm not saying that I will choose the mouthpiece everyone likes... I'm just curious as to what people prefer. Of course ultimately its how comfortable it is to make music with that will be the deciding factor, but I really don't need to be lectured and and told I'm doing this the "wrong way"... and yes I agree everything has to come from the player, but equipment does have an affect as you can hear in the recordings. The only thing I'm doing is asking a simple question out of curiosity. I'm not going to blindly follow the answers I get back. :(
One of the mouthpieces is a Richard Hawkins R model the other is a B40 Lyre 13 series, can you guess which is which? haha
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-12 15:00
"but I really don't need to be lectured "
Sorry that my help offended you. Please accept my apologies that I misread the simplicity of your question. Nevertheless, there is no need to be rude.....just trying to help.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-12-12 15:32
Thanks for posting these audio files. Really interesting.
It wasn't hard for me to decide: Mouthpiece No. 2 made you sound terrific. A very warm sound on the chalumeau and a nice ring on the higher notes.
I play a Hawkins "B". To my ear, given the choices you offered, I'd guess, as did Liquorice, that No. 2 is the Hawkins.
It's all what YOU like, of course.
I didn't care for the sound of No. 1 at all. But since I seem to be in the minority, I'll go back and listen again.
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-12-12 16:19
My guess is the same as Liquorice's:
1st recording -- B40 Lyre (13 series)
2nd recording -- Hawkins R
I agree that the 1st recording has a bit more ringing quality in the sound. I'm not sure which one I would consider better though...
Post Edited (2009-12-12 16:20)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2009-12-12 17:45
I agree with weberfan entirely. I detected a very lovely warmth in the 2nd recording.
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-12-12 19:03
I listened a second time.
I think I'll stick with my instinct and say I prefer No. 2, but i now hear what I believe others heard when you played No. 1. As Liquorice observed, the tone is rich and stays full when you play louder.
I somehow felt that with No. 1, the mouthpiece might lead you where IT wanted to go, that you had to exert more effort to make it do what you wanted it to. I suspect I was projecting that onto my own experience.
I'm really curious to know which one you prefer, and why.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-12-12 19:36
I'd say both seemed like they were limiting the sound to some extent - could you have played a lot louder on either while still keeping a quality tone? The first one seemed a bit better in this respect and I'd guess it's a slightly larger tip opening (doubtless stating this guess guarantees I will have it backwards). Anyway, whatever the difference is, I'd try finding one that differs from 1 in the opposite direction from 1 to 2. But a small caveat is that I thought 1 sounded less good on the very lowest note.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-13 04:35
I liked the first one better. There seemed to be more substance to the sound with the first one.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-12-13 13:49
I'm wondering what would happen if you did an actual blindfold test, enlisting a colleague to prepare the mouthpieces/reeds for you and, without you knowing which was which, just hand you the set-up horn and let you evaluate then.
I say this because I think it MIGHT be instructive to filter out subjective knowledge about the mp's as much as possible and just focus on playing and tonal characteristics.
I haven't shopped for barrels in years, but when I do, I'll want to try this with a musician friend who'd know how to set up the horn to play, and just hand me the instrument with a "mystery" barrel on it.
I've become a big fan of randomized double-blind testing in situations like this, where subjective criteria can sometimes alter/impair one's perception (I'm not saying that is going on HERE, just that it seems like a part of being human and I'd want to attempt to factor it out of the equation for myself, as much as possible).
Actually, this entire thread is a kind of experiment in randomized double-blind testing, isn't it? Fascinating!
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Author: interd0g
Date: 2009-12-13 14:55
Firstly, I prefer the warmth of the second mp, and in general I do not enjoy the full austerity of the 'classical' sound represented by the first, (except possibly for Brahms.).
Naturally this is only a personal preference, but what else is there in this realm, once you reach the plateau of acceptable?
This was an interesting test in that the two sounds represent two clearly identifiable characteristics in the clarinet sound. The player I suppose , has to decide which better represents his own persona.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2009-12-13 15:15
Prefer the second! Woodier, more overtones (to me).
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-12-15 01:30
simonN,
Before your thread passes into the next life, would you care to share your thoughts on the two mouthpieces we heard on your audio file? Did you prefer one to the other?
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Author: simonN
Date: 2009-12-15 05:18
first of all, thank you very much for commenting!!! It was so interesting to see that there wasn't a clear winner.
Sure thing. Your guesses were right, first was the B40 Lyre and the second was the Hawkins R model.
I feel each mouthpiece has it's own advantages and disadvantages.
For the Hawkins:
I find that the Hawkins, I think because of the difference in material has a unique (from other vandoren's anyway), and special sound... The thing that frustrates me however, is that I feel there is a cap to the intensity of sound. I can project very well with the hawkins, however actually sounding loud in color is much harder. With a soft reed like the one in the recording its possible, but as some people heard, the sound tends to spread at those dynamics. In general I find the Hawkin's has a very built in sound... it takes a lot of effort to change color, shape and create the tonal nuances i hear in my head. It simply feels inflexible. And clean articulation is also very difficult on the Hawkin's. The other thing is that it is VERY flee blowing... it takes a ridiculous amount of air... even though it feels closed. Intonation is also a struggle... it tunes low in the high and high in the low register. A bit of a night mare... It is also harder to focus the tone with the Hawkins.
Vandoren:
I feel that the B40 has a lot of depth and a very "extroverted" and lively sound. Having played on a hawkins for a year, I began to hear the differences material can have on tone. Of course everyone has a unique sound irrespective of what they play on, but I can tell with almost 100% accuracy whether someone is playing on a Vandoren or a Zinner. I don't think Vandoren's sound bad... but they have this plasticky, almost harsh quality to them... it's hard to explain in words. At first I was thinking, wow... this B40 sounds and feels fantastic... It's so flexible.. but the more i listened, the more I realized that the sound is a little one dimensional, simple and common. It was lacking that "special" sound quality. I guess I compare the B40 to a movie with a lot of explosions and expensive action scenes... it wows at first but you soon realize that there is nothing else to it.... I feel the hawkin's has something that is a little more interesting. I also felt that the B40 lacked in overtones... and was a tad bit airy.
I also started thinking about the clarinet players that I feel have their own unique voice and ones I keep coming back to, to see how they play things differently. Some of them are: David Shifrin, Sharon Kam, Charlie Neidich, Frank Cohen, Karl Leister, Sabine Meyer, Stoltzman. One thing they have in common they do not play Vandoren mouthpieces. Please don't think I'm saying vandoren mouthpicees sound bad... Some of my favorite players use them and sound amazing. I'm just saying that these people sound VERY different from the rest of the pack. Not that they sound better from people that play vandoren, they just sound different and unique.
This is all just my opinion!
I'm planning on making a trip to go see Richard Hawkins at Oberlin in a few days.. I have high hopes that I'll be able to find something that will work better for me.
Thanks again!
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-12-15 14:47
Simon,
Terrific mouthpiece memo. Thank you.
Because I play a Hawkins (B model) I'm particularly curious to know the results of your visit to Richard at Oberlin. He was great to deal with long distance, and I've been very pleased with the mouthpiece. But I'm a less experienced player than you are (I'm an adult returnee with two years of weekly lessons, so far). For me, the Hawkins model I have (a close tip) is both easy to play and provides great control.
The sound I heard on your audio file is similar to what I hear when I play. What it may lack in richness may have more to do with how I play at this stage. And while I enjoyed playing an M13Lyre and an M15, both close tips, as well, I find the Hawkins sound preferable. I have tried a B45, and while I enjoyed hearing the difference, it seemed to spread the sound and require a different kind of control that I was not able to provide.
Good luck on your quest!
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-12-15 15:10
Just to let you know I was first in PC computer when I heard this but now I'm in my MAC computer and the site you uploaded these clips say that they do not yet support MAC computers.
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-12-15 19:26
I could listen to it on my mac as well. I was able to play the files with iTunes.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-12-15 22:33
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that the B40lyre has 1.27mm opening while the Hawkins R model has I would believe 1mm or less opening. So simoN it would be nice to know what reed you used for each mouthpiece.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-12-15 23:14
I checked Hawkin's homepage and now he recommends reeds #3.5-4.0+ for the R model but he used to recommend #4.0-4.5 Maybe it's now a bit more opened than before and that what simoN has ?
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2009-12-16 00:27
Iceland,
I also noticed the dramatic difference in tip openings. I'd be very surprised if he was able to use the same reed on both mouthpieces.
Bill,
Funny how I think the first recording sounds "woodier." I guess that's the problem with all these strange terms we use to describe tone.
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Author: simonN
Date: 2009-12-16 00:50
I used a size 3.5 on the B40 Lyre and a size 4 on the Hawkin's (the reed on the hawkins was too light)
And yes, I do have the more recent, open Hawkins. I know people that played size 5 reeds on the earlier generation of R's. I guess they were more closed back then...
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-12-16 06:05
Iceland- B40 Lyre doesn't have 1.27mm opening. You're confusing that with the B45 Lyre. B40 Lyre is supposed to have around 117.5mm opening.
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