 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2009-12-09 08:53
What happened to the Tenor Clarinet ? We have a Bb Soprano Sax, an Eb Alto Sax, a Bb Tenor Sax and a Eb Bass ('Baritone') Sax, but where's the Bb Tenor Clarinet ? Now this should get a good discussion thread going but remember, if you wish to comment please maintain a good sense of humour. Like calling the Clarinet a 'horn' this involves the time honoured tradition of the misuse of words (terms).
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2009-12-09 09:00)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-12-09 09:01
...a Bass sax and a Baritone sax are two different animals.
--
Ben
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-12-09 09:36
Some people consider the basset horn to be a tenor clarinet.
Vanessa.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-09 10:03
After alto clarinet they skip to bass with no tenor in between.
Funny the higher clarinets from alto upwards are named after the upper register and from bass downwards they're named after the lower register.
You could throw things way out by this naming system:
Bb/A soprano-alto
Eb alto-tenor
Bb tenor-bass
EEb baritone-contra-alto
BBb bass-contrabass
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2009-12-09 11:06
Well Chris here is the only way I can make any sense out of it .
The tonality of an instrument is determined by the sounding of the C one octave above middle C and then determining what it actually sounds in concert pitch. Therefore :-
Piccolo Clarinet G
Sopranino Clarinets D Eb
Soprano Clarinets C Bb A
Alto Clarinets G F =('Basset Horn') Eb
Tenor Clarinets C Bb =('Bass') A
Base (Bass) Clarinet Eb
Contra Bass Clarinet BBb
Sub Contra Bass Clarinet EEb
Therefore the so called 'Bass' Clarinet is actually the Tenor instrument in the Clarinet 'family', and this system of classification brings it into line with the other Tenor pitched wind instruments. Namely the Tenor Saxophone, the Bassoon , the Euphonium (Tenor Tuba) ect . The Tenor Clarinet however has such a lovely 'deep' sound in it's lower range, it sounds bassy , and is an effective Base instrument for the higher woodwinds just like the Bassoon is.
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2009-12-09 11:10)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-09 11:35
Barry - that makes more sense, but you added an extra clarinet which would be an EEEb Sub Contrabass below the BBb contrabass - I don't know if Leblanc made an EEEb subcontrabass, but they did make the BBBb Octo-contrabass.
Hope you don't mind me amending your list of existing instruments [and questionable/theoretical one in square brackets]:
Piccolo Clarinet Ab G
Sopranino Clarinets D Eb
Soprano Clarinets C Bb A
Alto Clarinets G F =('Basset Horn') Eb
Tenor Clarinets C Bb =('Bass') A
Base (Bass) Clarinet EEb
Contra Bass Clarinet BBb
[Sub Contra Bass Clarinet EEEb]
Octo-Contrabass Clarinet BBBb
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John25
Date: 2009-12-09 12:25
Barry - allow me to disagree with your analysis. Firstly, what role does an instrument play and where is it's range. The bass clarinet usually (although not always) plays bass parts. No "tenor" instrument can go down to Bb below the bass clef, so you can't call a bass clarinet a "tenor". The tenor range is roughly from C in the bass clef up to top F in the treble clef. I put it to you that the normal "bass clarinet" covers both bass and tenor; we don't need a separate "tenor" and that's why we have never had one.
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Author: rsholmes
Date: 2009-12-09 13:42
In fact the term "tenor clarinet" has been used, particularly in England in the past, to refer to what is more commonly called the alto clarinet.
Chris P, yes, Leblanc made octocontra-alto clarinets, three of them, sometime around 1970 as I recall.
Don't try to make sense of the nomenclature: it doesn't. There is such an instrument as a bass flute, but is not by any stretch of the imagination in the bass vocal range. And the nomenclature convention within any particular instrument family conflicts with the convention in all other families. For that matter there's no particular agreement on some nomenclature: D and Eb clarinets are called soprano by some authorities, sopranino by others; Rice calls 18th century G clarinets "alto clarinets" though I don't know of anyone else who does.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2009-12-09 18:15
Nice list Chris, but you forgot the piccolo F (though you would be hard pressed to find any literature for it).
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2009-12-09 18:25
My references list the F as replacing the D in military bands (especially in Germany) and being one of the favorite conducting instruments for bandmasters prior to the introduction of the baton. Imagine one of those being banged on the conductor's stand! Ouch!!!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-12-09 21:03
A fine discussion, but it won't cause a change anywhere, does it have to make what we call "sense" ? If we revere the SATB of vocal classification, but have seen used . the terms colorature and lyric etc soprano, contra alto, several temors , baritones [our use is for sax ?only?] and basses of several ranges !!, what is to be gained by severe definition? Our bassoon and bass cl are blessed with a wide range, very useful to composers, and with much "overlap" into others. Perhaps an ?unwieldly? terminology by range would be more specific ?? Just PM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-09 23:02
How about assuming that the low register of the Bb and A clarinet, as well as the upper register of the bass clarinet play in the 'Tenor" range so we don't a Tenor clarinet, we're better than that. After all, we play "The Horn", "The Axe" "The Best". Who needs a Tenor anyway? ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2009-12-10 00:03
Don't mind at all Chris, and I see that you have also added the Ab Piccolo as well, forgot about that one. Thanks guys for the input. Very informative. The classification that I have presented is the most straight forward that I can think of , being based on the Soprano/ Alto/ Tenor / Bass with the usual extensions both ways which go way beyond the human voice range. The interesting thing about it is that you can also apply it to the other wind instrument 'families' , the Saxophones, Saxhorns (wide & medium bores) and the trumpet / Trombone set , with interesting results. As was noted above, in this type of simplified classification the tonality of a wind instrument is determined by the sounding of C above middle C and then finding out what it actually sounds in 'concert' pitch. The actual compass (range) of any particular instrument is not considered as instrumental compasses overlap each other, sometimes to a considerable extent .
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2009-12-10 00:26)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-12-10 09:52
If you count from the lowest note of all the clarinets and saxes, you find these equivalents (a half step different for the first two, but the same in the rest)-
Eb Soprano clarinet= Bb Soprano sax
Bb cl= Eb Alto sax
Eb Alto cl= Bb Tenor sax
Bb Bass cl= Eb Baritone sax
Eb Contra Alto cl= Bb Bass sax
Bb Contra Bass cl= Eb Contra bass sax
So, only the Eb Soprano clarinet and the Bb Contra bass have the same lowest note and the same name.
Post Edited (2009-12-10 12:32)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-12-10 11:18
The only real tenor clarinet is the basset horn and has been since it was invented. The reason being because it is essentially a clarinet in F.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2009-12-11 23:50)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-12-10 12:30
"The only really tenor clarinet is the basset horn and has been since it was invented."
Unless I am counting wrong, the basset horn only goes a half step lower than an Alto clarinet. Why would that half step make the difference from "alto" to "tenor"?
---
Thinking about it more, I am getting to be more in favor of my list; meaning that the "normal" Bb clarinet is an "alto". Considering the fact that the early clarinets could not go as high as today's, it seems more logical.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-12-10 22:01
That is true, Sky, since the "conventiional alto cls go to Eb, and the Bassets [horn, Basset cl, bass cl , et al] have the extended range, to low C by virtue of more low keywork and length. I've [IMHO!] always regarded the BH as an ext. range alto [ with a small , sop-like bore dia. and LJ length, giving it a diff. character sound!] with more keys, since it plays in F not Eb, so perhaps our low Eb bass cl really should be considered as the tenor, IF the ext. range "bass" is more truly a bass ?? I'm confused, others please help !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-12-10 22:52
If we refer to vocal ranges to determine the names, then the lowest E of an Effer puts the instrument in the "Alto" range, G below mid. C.
Low E on a "normal" Bb is only a whole step higher than the lowest note of the tenor range.
hmmm.....
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-12-11 11:09
>> the "normal" Bb clarinet is an "alto".
I've heard this suggestion before on this board. Makes sense to me:
Ab = sopranino / piccolo
Eb = soprano
Bb = alto
Eb 'alto' = tenor
Bb = bass
EEb = contrabass
BBb = wow
EEEb = look, they only made three, come on
BBBb = are you playing anything, I can't hear?
/Has/ anyone here ever heard the LeBlanc Bb octo-contra-bass?
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-12-12 00:00
Skygardener wrote:
"Considering the fact that the early clarinets could not go as high as today's, it seems more logical."
This is a ludicrous comment in my opinion. Why? Because the classical clarinet has the same range as the modern. Altissimo Cs are easily obtained on a 7keyed or how ever many keyed instrument. One just has to look at the Hook Concerto from the mid to late 18th C. It has a top altissimo C as does the Spohr No. 1 written in the 1820s.
A basset horn has always been referred to as the tenor instrument, please remember that the alto clarinet came a lot later and was only given this title by Sax because of the way he termed his crazy invention the saxophone which I believe is done on the vocal ranges. Clarinets on the other have not as they are older...
Clarinets in the 18th C were designated in pitch and not vocal range.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: BrianChau
Date: 2009-12-12 00:25
From what I know, the Basset Clarinet was originally called a "Bass Clarinet", before the modern Bass Clarinet was invented.
Brian
Brian Chau
University of British Columbia Concert Winds
Post Edited (2009-12-12 01:05)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-12-12 03:10
"This is a ludicrous comment in my opinion. Why? Because the classical clarinet has the same range as the modern. Altissimo Cs are easily obtained on a 7keyed or how ever many keyed instrument. One just has to look at the Hook Concerto from the mid to late 18th C. It has a top altissimo C as does the Spohr No. 1 written in the 1820s."
With the Hook example, how does it use that note? Is it used in a "Wow, that's so high! That's some amazing virtuoso work!" Or is it "just another note."
If most of the piece is in the first and second register, then I would consider the instrument to be part of that tessitura; a handful of the high notes are just extra, for me.
For ex. the cello *can* play up to A5, but would call the cello a "soprano" instrument? No, it is the bass, because that is where most of the action lies.
If you look at clarinet repertoire in that way, you will see that composers have only recently made real use of the notes above G5. Yes, there are many examples of scales/arpeggios that *visit* the higher notes for a moment, but we can't really say that the music really *lives* there.
Post Edited (2009-12-12 11:35)
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