 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2009-12-06 07:50
I'm sure everyone's read threads and had discussion about which pieces are hardest to play, etc. But I'm interested in hearing what passages "freak you out" the most; which, in spite of hours and hours in the practice room, still make you nervous every time you need to perform them (perhaps irrationally). I'm sure everyone's got at least one.
My current worst one is the set of arpeggiated sixteenth-note flourishes in the first Brahms Sonata (starting around 62-ish). For some reason, I can never go in feeling like I'm going to nail them in context, in spite of doing all the "right things" in the practice room, being able to play each up/down run individually, etc. It seems somewhat irrational, as I've pulled off "harder" technical passages without this problem before, but I can't kick it. Of course it's somewhat related to performance jitters, my having learned it wrong years ago, etc, but I've beaten that type of thing in other pieces; this one's special for some reason.
What passages does everyone else dread most?
Tom
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-12-06 11:55
Nothing scares me. It's all in the mind. I believe anything is possible.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-12-06 14:03
11-note bass clarinet solo after #11 in Scherzo of Mahler 5th! 8-1/2 bars of allegro alla breve to change from Bb clarinet to bass clarinet; then this nasty little 8th-note solo. I'm breaking out into a sweat as I write this -- even with snow outside my window.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-06 16:21
Switching to bass quickly is much easier with a good Legere bass reed.
Reverse challenge: in an upcoming performance of the Nutcracker Suite music, I am doing a quick bass to soprano switch just after the bass clarinet solo in "Danse de la Fee-Dragee" to the second clarinet entrance at [A]--made possible (I hope) by my K&M bass stand and Forestone reed. Due to a tight budget, our symphony could not afford to hire a bass clarinetist just for "that little passage"--especially since good ole 2nd clarinetist William is a versitle doubler. It's a "Holiday" concert and I am also doubling on tenor sax--another Legere reed, btw--for one tune. It's going to be almost like, "another opening, another show........"
Yup, DB--"it's only notes"--and strong shoulders to drag all those extra cases into the hall :>)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-12-06 16:29
I had read (I think it was posted by Ken Shaw) that Anthony Gigliotti said that The Gypsy Baron (J Strauss) was for him the most difficult solo in the orchestral literature.
...GBK
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-12-06 16:32
Those flourishes in the Brahms are, indeed, "scary." They put me off for months
But to put it all in perspective, take a listen to Stoltzman's recording. They are not that bad.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2009-12-06 17:18
Symphonie Fantastique, The Witches... transposed from C to Bb clarinet. That was practiced SO many times at slow speed and fast speed, with modest but disappointing success.
The Brahms' passages however were tamed by subdividing and counting in eighth notes; technique learned from my teacher. Sixteenths thus become two notes to a beat instead of 4.
So the string of 5 notes (end of bar 62): instead of playing 5 notes and hoping they end up fitting into the quarter beat, are separated into 2 notes for the first eighth, 3 notes for the second eighth. (A pencilled-in slash mark and also a "2" and "3" under each group makes it visually easy to see.) Bar 63 becomes 6 eighth notes, of course. The run in the 3rd beat of bar 64 becomes: 3 notes in the first eighth, and 4 notes in the second eighth (with a "3" and "4" written underneath). In bar 66, the run in the 3rd quarter beat now appears easy, only 3 and 3. This way I have complete control of when the notes are played, and they're absolutely even.
Strict practice with the metronome at modest speeds to easily handle the 8th notes makes it happen. Then it's a matter of gradually taking the entire bar up in tempo, first subdivided in 8ths then later in quarter notes as written, then gradually adding the bars before these areas.
If only the Berlioz transposition were that easy!
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Author: pewd
Date: 2009-12-06 17:19
Having survived Ginastera last spring, nothing bothers me anymore
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2009-12-06 19:04
I attended a Stoltzman master class a month or two ago and was a bit surprised by his playing. To sum up- in the 3rd piece of Stravinsky's three pieces he used vibrato and smear\portamento type things. Also, it was extremely loud and out of control with very little core to the sound.
Previous recordings of his have been very musical and entertaining, although I don't care for his sound and use of vibrato.
There are too many passages that can be scary to list. I agree with those above that said it's a matter of the mind. If you tell yourself something is scary, then it will be. If you start learning the Nielsen concerto with a calm and open mind, it's really not so terrible. I often find myself saying, "what was everyone freaking out about? It's just notes that have to be practiced slowly and methodically without panic".
Nathan
Graduate student, McGill University
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-06 19:23
I think Peter and David are very brave saying it's just notes because sometimes those notes fly by so fast the they do become scary, not impossible by any means but scary never the less. Yes, I agree with Paul about the Ginastera clarinet variation and here's a few others that are "scary" There's a clarinet passage in the Janacek Sinfonietta that scary fast, and very difficult, had to go over that a thousand times, maybe even two, when I played it. Rimsky-Korsakov's Le coq d'or Suite has a bit of a scary solo if the conductor insists the player follow them and does it very fast, not as bad as the Ginastera or Janacek though.
The two scariest passages for me on bass clarinet are the triplet passage on page 3 of Gershwins Concerto in F when the pianist plays it at an extreme speed, we just recorded that using the Ferde Grofe orchestration instead of Gershwins which every one usually plays, we recorded that one several years ago. Then there's Waltons Facade in big number 20 when you have only four beats at a pretty fast clip to change from clarinet to bass clarinet, and it's all exposed. I've made it about 90% of the time but some times missing the first few notes. It makes the change in Mahler's 5th that Larry mentioned seem like child's play.
William, it makes no difference what make reed you have on if you can't get the mouthpiece in your mouth on time. I keep the bass clarinet leaning over my should when I have a fast change and my clarinet peg right in front of me but still have to be careful not to have to clarinet fall. Now that's scary. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: tdinap
Date: 2009-12-06 20:44
I fully agree with the "it's only notes" philosophy on principle; it's tough to actually implement it 100% of the time, though.
So are you guys never nervous about any performance? If so, I applaud you. It will take quite a few more performances before I can get to that point.
Tom
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-12-06 21:02
I more or less kicked my performance nerves over the past 5 years. I now follow a "yeah, something might go wrong, and if it does, oh well, maybe it'll happen better next time" philosophy. As a result, far fewer things have gone wrong. I really only get nerves when I ascribe huge importance to something, or when I have nothing to say musically (i.e. if I'm just playing some series of notes without real personal involvement).
"It's only notes" is fine and good until you forget to say it to yourself. It's one of any number of tricks people play on themselves, which work ok, but really ignore the underlying issues. Every note on the page is an opportunity for coolness and awesomeness, and I recommend approaching a piece of music from a consistent "how awesome can I play this next part?" position, attempting to maximize how well you play, rather than "how close to my idea of perfection can I play this next part," trying to minimize how poorly you play. It's a subtle difference, but it's the difference between looking at how much can go right rather than how much can go wrong. Worst case, you end up a bit bummed that you didn't get as much spectacularly right as you wanted, rather than ready to kill yourself because you did so many things horribly wrong. It also doesn't impose some artificial ceiling to how well something can be played, which I've seen LOT of people limit themselves with, proclaiming "it doesn't get much better than that" at something I found mediocre.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-06 22:13
And one reason is that transposing it to an A clarinet makes it only marginally easier. And then you'd have to play most of the rest of the overture on A. Despite newer attitudes against transposing to make awkward passages easier, players used to do it all the time.
Karl
Post Edited (2009-12-06 22:24)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-07 00:47
I don't worry about notes. It's rests I find scary.
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Author: ShazamaPajama
Date: 2009-12-07 05:34
the first 2 sets of 32nd notes in the debussy rhapsodie. it shouldnt be that difficult, but i keep bumping the left hand fork (or banana key, but that sounds gay) when i go from the Ab to the B..
btw, anyone have any advice for those runs?
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Author: BrianChau
Date: 2009-12-07 05:46
i still can't play bar 86 of the 2nd movement of the mozart concerto...
but then again, i cant play a lot of other passages anyways....
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Author: kdolan01
Date: 2009-12-07 06:00
the 4 low E's on bass clar during the ho down of the copland rodeo. top of the 2nd page...
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Author: donald
Date: 2009-12-07 07:51
Last year I played 2nd clarinet for Salome (Strauss) and there was one bit that I could never for the life of me get in performance (though it went ok in the practise room). Fortunately it was not particularly exposed. I actually entered it on Sibelius to use as a study for students, but it's so utterly tuneless, awkward and with no apparent merit (on its own at least) that i can never bring myself to inflict it upon anyone i actually like.
When touring NZ with Hansel and Gretel (Humperdinck) there was a bit near the end of Act 1 where i had to change to a very cold A clarinet and play some awkward thing that slurred around the altissimo at pp. We were touring with a reduced score, and while my 1st clarinet part was mostly "original" it turned out that this bit was stolen from another instrument (3rd flute/picc?). If I actually played it, it sounded just plain "wrong". If I didn't play it the conductor (Tecwyn Evans) looked my way and wrinkled his nose.
Neither of these passages were impossible, just very awkward- and though i'm fairly certain (almost) no one noticed their absence, i still feel slightly ashamed to remember my failures.
dn
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-07 11:29
ShazamaPajama wrote:
Quote:
the first 2 sets of 32nd notes in the debussy rhapsodie. it shouldnt be that difficult, but i keep bumping the left hand fork (or banana key, but that sounds gay) when i go from the Ab to the B..
btw, anyone have any advice for those runs?
I'm not sure if this will work for you--you might already be doing this--but when I play this, I play the D# that begins the run using the left hand fork key. I'm thinking if you start the run with that fingering, you'll feel where the key is so you can avoid it later in the run.
If you're already doing it that way, maybe try using the RH side key instead and see if that helps.
It might also help to think about keeping your fingers relatively close to the holes on this run. That way they don't have a chance to stray too far along the length of the instrument before you put them back down again.
Post Edited (2009-12-07 11:39)
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-07 15:12
ED P: "William, it makes no difference what make reed you have on if you can't get the mouthpiece in your mouth on time."
I agree with that. My main thought was that the Legere does need to be re-moistened before that first note--as soon as you do find your mouth, it's ready to play :>) BTW, for my upcoming bass to soprano switch in the Nutcracker, I only have THREE beats (2/4 subdived.) I just leave the bass sitting in the K&M stand for a quick re-placement while my other hand grabs the A. Your "over the shoulder" manuver would work just as well--kind of like the let-the-sax-hang and grab-the-clarinet trick for pit orchestras lol.
BTW, I am really somewhat bothered by offering to double-cover the important bass parts because it puts our regular bass clarinetist out of work for this concert, but we are a small, regional symphony with hugh budgetary problems and I guess it's necessary. Last spring, we cancelled a concert weekend as well as our July 4th concert series in two cities because there just wasn't enough money to pay the musicians. This season, we are doing some concerts with reduced personall as well--one film festival with only one clarinetist and one weekend with just strings--no winds. Wish there coud be some "bailout" money for the Arts.
Oh, and btw, my "scariest" passage--the next solo I have to play. I worry about all of them. It's not just about playing the notes, it's playing them *well*. Afterall, you're only as good as your next performance :>)
Post Edited (2009-12-07 15:16)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2009-12-07 15:37
"This season, we are doing some concerts with reduced personall as well--one film festival with only one clarinetist and one weekend with just strings--no winds. Wish there coud be some "bailout" money for the Arts."
--------------------------------------------------------
The Arts are probably considered to be what the rich do to entertain themselves in their spare time.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-12-07 20:11
I've got such mixed feelings about Stoltzman. He played some fabulous ad-lib Benny Goodman stuff here last summer with the Spokane Symphony -bouncing back and forth for several minutes with a drummer. My wife loved his vibrato-filled Amazing Grace in the same concert.
In his (probably old) recording of the Brahms, his vibrato is often so wide that it sounds like he's out of tune and has missed a note. In my recording, he and the pianist/teammate are SO together, so musical that I can ignore his peculiarities.
... and I did not dig the thing he did at the Vancouver, Canada ClarinetFest which included poking the bell of his horn inside the grand piano.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Pilot
Date: 2009-12-07 20:39
Well not scary but what I find really difficult is the clarinet solo from Peter and the Wolf where the cat runs up the tree.
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Author: Frightful
Date: 2009-12-07 21:38
The end of Artie Shaw's concerto. Just thinking about screwing it up in concert and not being able to hit that high C or gliss correctly would be terribly embarrassing.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-12-09 17:22
Two of the scariest for me are:
1) The Eefer part in Daphnis and Chloe 2 even though you're playing with others the Eefer can be heard. The notes come fast and in not the friendliest keys.
2) The bass part in Grand Canyon Suite where you have to play C, C#, D (above the staff) very softly and in control. Oddly enough I'm less scared of the ending part answering the oboe in the wicked runs as they are loud and seem to fall under the fingers OK.
There are others that exert fear too, like the Eefer parts in the Ravel piano Concerto and the Shostakovich 5th and the bass part in La Valse, the latter a tempo thing more than the notes.
Eefer guy
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-09 23:11
Eeferguy, for the C, C#, D at the end of the mov't in the Grand Canyon Suite are you using the proper fingerings? Side keys for the C# and the opened D, overblowing the throat G, but using the register key only? The other passages you mention, a bit tricky but I wouldn't call them Scary. I guess it depends on your ability though. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-12-10 09:57
I would say the third mvt. of the Symphonie Espagnole of Rimsky-Korsakov is quite "scary". I don't know if I have ever heard it done as written. When I did it I changed the rhythm- no guilt about it, either- my fingers are not as fast as RK's imagination. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-12-10 17:17
Ed,
I do use the fingerings you describe. It just feels like you're all alone out there on that one. It's certainly not technical but I get that sinking feeling when I do it! After the first C comes out cleanly and at the right volume I feel OK. Ironically I've never felt a bit nervous about the running passage, partly because it's loud.
I think Daphnis will always scare me though even now when I can play the part essentially from memory! It was my first BIG orchestral piece on Eefer so I think I have those memories of my anxiety.
Eefer guy
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-12-10 17:49
Ed,
I do use the fingerings you describe. It just feels like you're all alone out there on that one. It's certainly not technical but I get that sinking feeling when I do it! After the first C comes out cleanly and at the right volume I feel OK. Ironically I've never felt a bit nervous about the running passage, partly because it's loud.
I think Daphnis will always scare me though even now when I can play the part essentially from memory! It was my first BIG orchestral piece on Eefer so I think I have those memories of my anxiety.
Eefer guy
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