 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bekahs77
Date: 2009-12-03 18:42
New here, I just discovered this forum a couple weeks ago. I'm a returning clarinet player, now playing in our local community band for the last year.
Anyway, I had my clarinet overhauled last spring, and have developed some trouble with the corks around the joints. Last month the upper joint which connects to the barrel tore. Thankfully I'm still under warranty. Yesterday at practice I noticed now my lower joint which connects to the bell is torn. I use leblanc cork grease regularly. I do keep my clarinet out on a stand, being a busy mom of six, it makes practicing spur of the moment more convenient. However, I've done this since even before the overhaul and the problem only began last month. The clarinet is usually disassembled at least once a week to transport to practice.
I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions for a better product than the cork grease I'm using? I've noticed that the grease can feel gummy or gluey even after just a 1.5 hr rehearsal when I disassemble the clarinet. Or any other ideas to prevent this from recurring?
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Bekah
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-12-03 18:55
1. use the "doctor's products" cork grease (search this forum or google doctors products.
2. do not leave your clarinet assembled for long time e.g. more than a few hours, it really does harm the cork to keep it compressed.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-12-03 19:47
It does tend to compress the corks if you regularly leave the clarinet assembled overnight, although I've found that they expand again if I only leave my clarinets out for a night and then disassemble them at the end of the next day's practice. I also find the joints are less likely to stick if I pull them partially apart. I've used any number of cork greases. Some seem to last longer than others and a couple do get gummy. I've never used Dr. Henderson's products, but they get a lot of good comments here and would certainly be worth trying. If you can get straight lanolin or rendered mutton tallow (which is probably mostly lanolin) at a local pharmacy, that seems to work well and is a lot less expensive than cork grease, although finding it can be difficult.
Karl
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2009-12-03 22:20
(Disclaimer - I sell cork grease)
IMO - stick with plants (natural plant oils and waxes) with plants (cork). Either petroleum or animal residues will destroy cork over time (my research), - turn it black, make it flake off, get gummy, and reduce the cork's ability to compress and expand to serve its purpose of forming an airtight seal.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: bekahs77
Date: 2009-12-03 22:28
That makes a lot of sense. I take care not to use petroleum products on me or my children because of how it leeches vitamins from the body. It never entered my mind to wonder what was actually in the cork grease.
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Bekah
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2009-12-03 22:38
Three suggestions:
1. Use The Doctor's products.
2. Use The Doctor's products.
3. Use The Doctor's products.
There may be some equivalent products available, but I have not suggested them because I have not used them and, so, have no experience with them. When I started using The Doctor's products, I stopped searching.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-04 03:34
I've used the Doctors cork grease once and it is very good but I use the basic cork grease all the time anyway. It's just easier for me to go to the local music store and pick up several at a time. I've used that type of cork grease all my professional life, 48 years so far, on all my instruments, except that one time, and have never had a problem. I actually put the grease on the inside of the tendons instead of on the cork for the bell and barrel. You might be putting to much on, or the corks may be too tight to begin with. If you're going to leave the clarinet together you should probably make sure the tendons are dry first and put a touch of cork grease on the joints before leaving it and it is a good suggestion to seperate the joints half way before setting it down. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-12-04 05:15
The two types of cork grease that I found are best from all I've tried are Doctor Slick from Doctor's Products and Alisyn which you can buy for example from Music Medic. I recommend using one of those. But it is not common that using the cheap cork grease ruins the cork so soon, so it sounds that maybe there was something wrong with the repair like using a bad cork or glue.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-12-04 05:28
I agree with Norman:
1. use the "doctor's products" cork grease (search this forum or google doctors products.
2. do not leave your clarinet assembled for long time e.g. more than a few hours, it really does harm the cork to keep it compressed.
However Alisyn cork grease should definitely be added to the two from Doctors Products. (Very similar to Doctor Syntek, but with a different feel to the fingers.)
And in your case especially, when it is "gummy or gluey even after just a 1.5 hr rehearsal when I disassemble the clarinet." clean all traces off with naphtha (lighter fluid) first.
Getting back to the original question, re torn corks.
Corks that are lubricated simply don't tear unless the cork itself is substandard from significant splits or holes near the edge (in which case the tear will be highly localised), or the glue is substandard, which is common.
And a greased cork on an instrument that is left assembled for a long time (hence the cork losing diameter) should be even less likely to tear.
Over a LONG period, substandard cork grease (probably including that marketed as LeBlanc!) may cause glue to become substandard. And no doubt, some techs probably use unsuitable glue.
However the most likely cause is that the manufacturer cut corners and used a substandard glue. And LeBlanc has quite a history of using substandard glue. If the glue is failing, then cork will peel off quite easily, sometimes even in a single piece. Well glued cork is quite difficult to remove. It needs to be severely mutilated to remove it.
So the burning question is, who put this cork on?
Post Edited (2009-12-06 11:05)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-12-04 09:44
>> However Alisyn cork grease should definitely be added
>> to the two from Doctors Products. (Very similar to Doctor
>> Slick, but with a feel to the fingers.)
Hi Gordon
I think you confused something. Alisyn is synthetic and is more similar to Doctor Syntek as far as what it is made of, I think (maybe Omar can correct this if it's wrong). Doctor Slick is the natural one from Doctor and IMO has a much better feel than his Syntek which IMO is too greasy. Eventhough Alisyn is more similar to Syntek the feel is very different and actually looks and feels completely different, and has the best feel on the fingers. This is why I consider Doctor Slick and Alisyn best and much better than Doctor Syntek.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-12-04 13:15
I agree with Gordon. It does sound like the cork was not put on properly. I have a strong hunch that the glue is wrong.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-12-04 14:20
I have found the following, my experience only.
In learning clarinet refurbing, with cork installation, if the new cork edge is left square and standing proud, it tends to catch the sharp bell or barrel edge and can start a tear.
I now shape the cork in a barrel shape where the outer edges go slightly below the tenon edge so the bell and barrel easily slides over the cork edge. (A suggestion from a BB member)
Also, if contact cement is used, it must be applied properly, having it dried to just the right degree before contact with the mating surface. Putting the clarinet together too soon after a new cork job can cause the glue to fail, possibly from cork grease coming in contact with uncured glue.
Just offering some possibilities, hope it helps.
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
Post Edited (2009-12-04 14:32)
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Author: bekahs77
Date: 2009-12-04 14:59
"So the burning question is, who put this cork on?"
The instrument was repaired at a shop that was recommended by many in the community band. It's also now the public schools' repair shop. I'm in a fairly rural location, so not a lot of options.
"Putting the clarinet together too soon after a new cork job can cause the glue to fail, possibly from cork grease coming in contact with uncured glue."
How long should it rest?
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Bekah
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-12-04 15:07
bekahs77 wrote:
"How long should it rest?"
There are others much more qualified to answer than me on this BB but, I install the cork, then wrap thick rubber bands (not too tight) evenly covering all the cork and leave it for at least 3 hours. I would guess the longer the better.
The above would have been done in the shop. By the time it reaches you, it should be ready to use.
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
Post Edited (2009-12-04 16:12)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-12-04 16:13
>> How long should it rest? <<
I think this depends on the glue. I've tried too-many-to-count different contact glues. With what I use, I expect to be able to put cork grease and assemble imediately or at most a few minutes after gluing. The player can imediately take the clarinet and play.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-12-04 19:09
A good contact glue is usually ready for the cork to be applied after about 5-10 minutes.
Once cork is applied the glue joint should be pretty strong imediately although it will continue to cure and reach max strength in about 24 hours.
I sand and ajust fit of the cork as soon as it has been glued to tenon and then grease cork and assemble joint, leaving in situ for say 30 minutes to allow an even and steady pressure on the entire glued surface. May seem like overkill but I've never had any of the thousands of recorks I've done fail after this.
Note - sand a bevel on leading edge of cork before gluing to tenon, helps to avoid damaging the exposed end of the tenon.
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Author: bekahs77
Date: 2009-12-04 21:33
"clean all traces off with naphtha (lighter fluid) first."
Is there any other common household items that will clean the residue off? I'm going to order the Doctor's products, but I need to wait until next pay day.
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Bekah
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-12-04 21:42
"Is there any other common household items that will clean the residue off?"
I've used "Goo Off" with success too. Let it soak a few minutes and wipe off.
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-12-06 11:09
Clarnibass wrote:
<< I think you confused something. Alisyn is synthetic and is more similar
<< to Doctor Syntek as far as what it is made of....
Quite correct. Thanks. I have corrected my post.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-12-06 13:08
My sense is that the original cork was a tight fit. Fix it yourself. Take some waxed dental floss and go round and round. Then apply some cork grease liberally. If you leave the clarinet together for long periods of time pull some joints apart slightly. ie pull the barrel off half way and mouthpiece.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2009-12-06 23:41
The contact cement I use recommends using acetone as a solvent and it seems to work quite well. You can get acetone at the hardware store or just use nail polish remover (it's mostly acetone). However, use it sparingly as it will tend to dry out the wood.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-12-07 11:54
And acetone will dissolve the surface of many plastics to a (finger-printed!) cosmetic mess, so don't use it with plastic bodies.
Naphtha (lighter fluid) does the job pretty well and is safe on most materials.
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Author: bekahs77
Date: 2009-12-07 18:45
Thanks for all the helpful advice. I was able to clean the old cork grease off well with Goo-Gone (wouldn't you know with 6 kids, we'd have it around). I tried separating some of the joints partially as described, but I feel it's less secure to leave it on the stand that way, so I'll try to be better at putting it away in the case after use. The technician is going to check the tenons for anything that might be causing a problem when it's taken in this week for repair, as well.
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Bekah
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