 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-01 15:00
She is playing musically with good control, but what she is playing is really not that difficult. Range from (trpt pitch) G4 to a "one time only" final C6, the entire solo is really just a C maj chordal riff. And no extrordinary articulative, rhythmic nor technical complexity--I would say, well within the playing means of most 8th grade trumpet students with a little practice. However, she does play "what it is" very well. FWIW, if you search Utube carefully, there is another audio-only presentation of her reportably playing the final movt of the Hummel Concerto at age 14 and if in fact it is really her playing, that would be commendable and more "noteworthy". Now, I'll stop being grumpy this am and get back to my clarinet...........
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2009-12-01 19:13
It is a beautiful version of "Taps." My husband, also a USAF veteran, commented on it, hearing the music in the next room.
There's a lot of us love that song and remember gravesides where a taped version played, keyed on a tape machine by local veterans' group members.
Thank you for sharing 'Il Silenzio."
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-12-02 01:37
Poignant and touching. It reminds me of Susan Boyle of youtube fame. You don't need a thousand notes to pull at the heartstrings of people.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-12-03 10:07
Hi,
I expect a firestorm of criticism but I'm like William, a little grumpy with the kind of emphasis being placed on this musical example. This setting was a concert - of sorts - and not a military funeral. Are we focusing on the young player, the obvious emotions that hearing Taps played evoke, or what.
As William stated "well within the playing means of most 8th grade trumpet students with a little practice." IMHO, this rendition is what the comedian Pete Barbutti used to call an AWW Song (you say that when you hear it).
Pleasant but nothing really special.
HRL (a former US Army bandsman BTW)
Post Edited (2009-12-03 13:35)
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Author: ShazamaPajama
Date: 2009-12-03 10:15
i liked it ^^
i tried to play trumpet for three years, and i couldnt get that great of a sound as hard as i tried.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-12-03 11:19
I won't comment on the music but rather the cheap and cheesy setups such performances are presented in. It's the typical Saturday Evening Family Show with a patronising host, an demonstratively benevolent audience and a poor kid that has to play the side show, and everyone feels good because of the tear-jerking piece and the lil'one is just sooo cute.
'scuse me for venting.
--
Ben
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-12-03 13:40
Hank Lehrer wrote:
> You'll never make it as a Stage Mom (sorry, Stage Dad).
<hangs head>
Yeah, I'm a parental failure.
--
Ben
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2009-12-03 14:11
The original post, knotty, didn't request a musical vivisection of the trumpet playing abilities of the player.
I hope no one posts any musicians playing Christmas music, for fear the tunes be drawn and quarter-noted on this forum. Please, no you-tubes of Gene Autry playing his reindeer song, or that Burl Ives' snowman music.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-12-03 14:49
tictactux wrote:
> I won't comment on the music but rather the cheap and cheesy
> setups such performances are presented in.
Oh, c'mon. It's Andre Rieu, king of cheese & schmaltz (and makes a very good living at it, thank you very much - my opinion of him counts for naught). I expect that kind of stuff as soon as I see him.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-12-03 14:57
> I expect that kind of stuff as soon as I see him.
So do I. He's a reason to switch off the TV, shut down the computer, unplug the phone, bolt the doors, roll down the shutters and start a screaming steaming practice session in order to get his schmaltzy oily gooey sound out of one's ears.
Did I mention I'm no fan of his?
--
Ben
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-03 14:59
She wasn't playing Taps. She was playing Il Silenzio, an instrumental pop song based on Taps and written by the Italian jazz trumpeter Nini Rosso. It was a #1 hit record in Europe the mid-1960s.
If you want to hear the "original": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAWfyexuyrQ
It wasn't a Saturday-evening variety show, either. This was an Andre Rieu concert. His concerts frequently feature child soloists (usually local ones from whatever community he's performing in). The ambiance of his concerts is much more informal than a typical symphony concert, and he often will invite the audience to sing along to familiar tunes or dance or what have you. It may not be how most of us do business--but I'll say one thing for him, he brings our beloved classical music to audiences that otherwise wouldn't have anything to do with it. And if seeing a 13-year-old girl play the trumpet like that is enough to convince even one kid that taking up a musical instrument is cool or convince someone's parents that it's worth it to pay for lessons and instruments, Rieu's done his job.
Arguably, Andre Rieu is doing more to ensure the future of classical music than just about any other performer I can think of. While the rest of us are whining about how ticket sales are down, government funding is down, and classical music as we've known it is dying, he's drawing in big crowds and leaving them entranced. And while one might argue that the colorful dresses, ornate music stands, dancing in the aisles, and other non-musical factors perhaps cheapen the experience--if it gets people to listen to classical music, what's wrong with it? How many of us were led to take up the clarinet because we grew up listening to Benny Goodman (with Schalltrichter unabashedly in der Hohe), for instance?
Whatever happened the Boston Pops, for instance? We need somebody to be the new Arthur Fiedler--Rieu seems to be doing a pretty decent job, I think.
And let's face it--a lot of so-called "classical" music IS cheesy and schmaltzy. It's called romanticism. That's why composers like Stravinsky and Hindemith pulled away from 19th century style--they'd had enough of the cheese.
My fellow Americans, you need to watch more PBS. If you did, you'd know who this guy was. He's always doing TV specials.
It's thanks to performances like this that we get to continue to do our thing. Even in my little orchestra, it's the annual Christmas Pops concert that draws in new audience members to see our other "serious" concerts (not to mention donors!).
Post Edited (2009-12-03 15:08)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-12-03 15:06
mrn wrote:
> My fellow Americans, you need to watch more PBS. If you did,
> you'd know who this guy was. He's always doing TV specials.
>
W@ho the hell do you think we "fellow Americans" are? I watch - and contribute - regularly to PBS. I do not watch - or contribute - when Andre Rieu is on. As _I_ said, my opinion counts for naught.
Don't even think to speak for me.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-03 15:20
Mark Charette wrote:
> Don't even think to speak for me.
I wasn't--you at least know who he is, and probably because, like me, you watch PBS.
I never said you had to watch, much less like, Andre Rieu. You and I (people who already love classical/instrumental music) aren't his target audience, anyway.
My point was that it's hard not to know who this guy is if you watch PBS.
Well, that, and the fact that he has an important role to play in our "cultural ecosystem," whether you or I like his performances or not.
The "my fellow Americans" bit was my (apparently failed) attempt at interjecting a little bit of lightheartedness into the conversation by emulating one of those time-honored, if not hackneyed, catch-phrases of our American political leaders, who, as we all know, don't speak for everyone.
Post Edited (2009-12-03 15:50)
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-12-03 18:22
Somebody wrote:
>> She is playing musically with good control, but what she is playing is really not that difficult...>>
I'll be interested to follow her development. At the moment she seems to understand -- perhaps that's not the right word, she seems to EMBODY -- the most important thing about playing.
>> ...well within the playing means of most 8th grade trumpet students with a little practice.>>
Absolutely not.
You, and others -- "Pleasant, but nothing really special" -- just have no idea.
It might go wrong later, of course. I certainly hope not.
Tony
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-03 19:40
>> ...well within the playing means of most 8th grade trumpet students with a little practice.>>
That was my statement and it is absolutely true. I taught middle school trumpet students for 30 yrs--ages 10 through 14--and I know what they are capable of with proper instruction and practice outside of class. The young trumpet player, the subject of the thread, plays very well and I might add, above average for her age. However, what she is playing is not really that difficult and--I will repeat myself--well within the playing means of most 8th grade (13-14 yr old) trumpet students with a little practice.
Sorry, Tony P, but in this case your assertion of "absolutely not" is uninformed and absolutely wrong.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-12-03 19:47
William wrote:
>> Sorry, Tony P, but in this case your assertion of "absolutely not" is uninformed and absolutely wrong.>>
Well, you're not a musician, are you?
Tony
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-03 20:17
"Well, you're not a musician, are you?"
Still wrong, Tony. But more importantly, I am an experianced music educator with advanced university credentials: MS Educ & Mus, University of Wisconsin 1966. And I've "been there and done that" which is most likely where you fall a bit short. More to the point, how many 14 yr old trumpet students have you successfully taught?? Your area of expertise is the clarinet, for which btw, I do have much respect. My area of musical expertise is more diverse and you should repect that. Your above quote is petty at best.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-12-03 20:25
William wrote:
>>... more importantly, I am an experianced music educator with advanced university credentials: MS Educ & Mus, University of Wisconsin 1966. And I've "been there and done that" which is most likely where you fall a bit short.>>
:-)
>> Your area of expertise is the clarinet, for which btw, I do have much respect. My area of musical expertise is more diverse and you should repect that. Your above quote is petty at best.>>
Musical talent is independent of the instrument on which it's expressed.
That you claim otherwise is just more evidence that you aren't a real musician.
Tony
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-12-04 07:43
I haven't yet watched the video of this particular performer but I do think that in many cases those who choose to feature very young and therefore relatively inexperience performers in their concerts often take the wise step of choosing a piece which is well within the player's capabilities for an early high-pofile performace which may well be so in this case. It could well be that in a more private setting this girl is already capable of considerably more difficult pieces.
Vanessa.
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Author: Mary Jo
Date: 2009-12-04 10:27
Venessa, you might just be right. I'll go one further and speculate that girl is very possibly a real musician, too.
Mary Jo
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-04 15:28
Tony Pay: "Musical talent is independent of the instrument on which it's expressed."
This is very true.
"That you claim otherwise is just more evidence that you aren't a real musician."
I have never claimed "otherwise" and this assertion is rediculous--as well as irrevelant. My musicianship is not the issue, my experiance and knowledge is. Bottom line, I probably know more about the trumpet than you ever will--having successfully taught many young trumpet students (as well as all other wws, brs, perc & strgs) over the course of my career. And based upon my teaching experiance, I am a better and more accurate judge of what is technically difficut for that instrument than you. "Il Silenzio" is based on 'Taps', a bugle tune that most beginning cornet students can perform after only one year of lessons. The arrangement is quite simple and quite playable by the average third year (8th grade, 13 or 14 yr old) trumpet student--although most could not play it as beautifully as the young lady did in the video. Now Tony, if you cannot understand fully what I have (again) written, I am truely sorry.
BTW, it should be, by now, obvious that Tony is trying to distract us all from his lack of trumpet knowledge and teaching experiance by attacking my "musicianship". And regarding even that, he is totally clueless and petty.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-12-04 17:22
Hi William,
I enjoyed reading your response to Mr. Pay's seemingly groundless utterances.
As a former junior high and high school band director with close to 20 years experience, I have found no difficulty understanding the logic of your arguments. The pedagogy that you have outlined for beginning trumpet is accurate and based on the same principles that allowed me, a clarinet player, to successfully teach brass instrument students for many years.
Mr. Pay's claim that "you are not a real musician" is laughable.
HRL
Post Edited (2009-12-04 19:55)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-04 19:24
William wrote:
Quote:
And based upon my teaching experiance, I am a better and more accurate judge of what is technically difficut for that instrument than you.
Perhaps you are, but so what?
You still don't understand the point Tony is trying to make.
In fact, if I may be so bold, I think that your training in music education and your 30 years of experience in teaching 8th grade trumpet may actually be getting in the way of your ability to see where Tony is coming from.
It's much easier for me to see the point he's trying to get across because, although I don't make living as a musician, to the extent I that I do participate in music, I have always been primarily a performer (clarinetist and singer) and, to a very limited extent, a composer. I don't really teach (other than my own son who's just now beginning to play and, of course, teaching myself to play various instruments), and I'm too old to play in most competitions.
You clearly see this young lady from the perspective of a band director and pedagogue, for whom levels of technical mastery and competitive prowess are important. You seem unimpressed with her performance because what seems to matter most to you is where she lies on some kind of hypothetical syllabus of graded trumpet pieces. At least that's what your above posts suggest, and you haven't yet said anything to the contrary.
But I see her from the perspective of a fellow performer (and former 13-year-old performer, for that matter), whose ONLY concern is with making good art. And I'm off the graded solo track (although I will confess that I do like to challenge myself with new pieces). Unlike you, I was favorably impressed by her performance because of her level of musical maturity. While the notes were not difficult to play technically, her ability to convey the message of the music was quite precocious--in fact, I'd venture to say that there are a lot of adults who don't have that level of musical sensibility (and the longer I live, the more I see this is the case).
So, you see, Tony isn't accusing you of not being familiar with trumpet pedagogy and the technical details of playing the trumpet. Nor does he claim to know anything about that (although I wouldn't put it past him--after all, I've learned a little about violin pedagogy just from watching my daughter learn). He's taking you to task because you act as if you think that technical stuff matters more than musical understanding and artistic expression. And the more Tony challenges you on it, the more entrenched in that view you appear.
The point Tony is making (or one of them, at least) is that technical skills, although they are easier to teach and evaluate, are only of secondary importance to musical understanding and expression. The true hallmark of musical talent is an ability to understand what the music is saying and convey it to the listener. Everything else, including technical ability, is only ancillary to musical expression--and, in fact, *unnecessary* except to the extent required to execute the music at hand in accordance with one's musical understanding. A *musician* (as opposed to a technician) is someone who understands that and puts it into practice.
And not only is musical talent independent of the musical instrument on which it is expressed, as Tony said, I would go further and say that IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH INSTRUMENTS AT ALL!!!! After all, composers don't even need instruments to express themselves musically. It's the ability to comprehend the music and then bring that meaning to some form of expression that makes someone a good musician. As Pablo Casals once said, "Don't play the notes. Play the meaning of the notes."
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-12-04 20:11
mrn,
An interesting point you are making. But where things are breaking down could be with Mr. Pay's use of the word "real." If we consider some of the common definitions for that word, one might say genuine, existing, not imagined, or that something is actual.
Trying to measure the presence of any of these qualities/attributes is beyond me. Perhaps you can provide some form of matrix or criteria to use. How does one know when something is real?
Looking at the three domains of learning, cognitive and psycho-motor are easy enough to measure but affective, which deals with one's value system, is very difficult to quantify. Too intrinsic.
I stand by ready to learn from you.
HRL
Post Edited (2009-12-04 20:18)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-12-04 20:27
Maybe my ears are screwed on backwards but I hear something special in the tone produced here. All it takes is a few notes and a connection is made to the audience. There is no bravura just pure good tone.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2009-12-04 22:29
I realize that my opinion amounts to zero, but the beautiful tones that this young person played touched me so deeply that I actually cried through most of her performance.
I've never reacted that way before... Thanks for posting!
FWIW
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-05 02:33
Hank wrote:
Quote:
Looking at the three domains of learning, cognitive and psycho-motor are easy enough to measure but affective, which deals with one's value system, is very difficult to quantify. Too intrinsic.
I stand by ready to learn from you.
I get your point, Hank. But you didn't have to delve into Bloom's taxonomy to convince me that teachers are intelligent people. You see, my father worked in public school education for 30 years. 20 of those years he taught high school speech and English--the other 10 he spent in administration. He had an MEd, too. He was a very intelligent man and immensely talented, especially as a writer, but also as a painter. He also had a good ear for music. The fact that he taught high school English for 20 years didn't make him any less talented as a writer or not a "real" writer. Same thing goes for school music directors. I recognize that teachers, as a whole, are underpaid, under-appreciated, and (more to the point) underestimated.
Now I can't say for sure why Tony said what he did in the way that he did, but I didn't read him as making a jab at the music education profession, and my remarks were certainly not intended that way.
I do think Tony has brought up a valid point, however, namely that technical ability is not synonymous with musicianship--it isn't even the most important part of being a musician. The most important part of musicianship (as I understand it, anyway) is musical understanding and expression. That is, in fact, what musicians do--they express artistic ideas in sound. A musical instrument is merely a tool for use in conveying that expression.
I understand that much of our time and effort (especially in our early years of playing) must be devoted to the practical, technical side of things in order for us to advance musically. Simply put, we have to have the practical skills at our disposal to permit us to perform our art. This necessarily means that the professional music educator must devote a substantial amount of time and effort into developing the technical side of a student's playing. To this end, it is important to provide a young student with works of increasing technical difficulty to allow the student to grow. In my school music experience, our annual solo & ensemble competitions provided a vehicle for this kind of progressive study, for instance. I strongly feel that progressively graded solos and etudes have their place in music education.
But this videotaped concert was not a solo & ensemble competition. It was a performance--which is ultimately the whole point of music-making--but also a very different animal from a competition or the playing of etudes. On the stage, all that matters is that one makes good art--that you play it well and make good music people can appreciate and enjoy. The technical difficulty of the music is really irrelevant to the quality of the performance.
So William's comment regarding the lack of technical difficulty was rather misplaced, I think. He took a pedagogical system that was intended to aid in a student's progressive development as a musician and used it for a purpose for which it was never intended, namely to pass judgment on a young person's performance (and by implication, their musicianship) based on the technical difficulty of the piece she played, all the while discounting the very positive aspects of the performance, which are, in fact, the true marks of good musicianship, and much more difficult to come by (at least partly because they often are more a function of natural talent, as opposed to musical instruction).
When I was a senior in high school, my band director invited me to play as a soloist with the band on our final concert, and I felt very honored to do so. The piece he selected for me to play, though, was an easy one, Weber's Concertino, which was below my level of technical capability as a senior. I would have been greatly offended, and my band director probably incensed, had some band director from another school shown up and written my performance off as "unimpressive" or "nothing special" because he had 8th graders at his school learning that piece. Of course, few people would have had the chutzpah to engage in that kind of unprofessional behavior to my face or to my director's. But people will say whatever they please to the computer.
I mean Stanley Drucker played the Concertino on national TV--would you tell HIM that you weren't impressed because he played a piece an 8th grader can play? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.
Likewise nobody would dare put down Sabine Meyer for recording the Stamitz Concertos, which are even easier to play than Weber.
But if it's somebody else's student getting all the attention, that's a different story, isn't it?
Do you see what I'm getting at? None of this has anything to do with music or musicianship? It's pure unadulterated competition and one-upsmanship. It has nothing to do with being a musician, and it shouldn't have any place in music education, either, but unfortunately the high emphasis in music education that we place on competition often leads to this kind of absurdity. Don't get me wrong--competition has its place, and I love to compete as much as anybody--but the notion that one must make gratuitous displays of their highest level of virtuosity at all times or else be judged inferior or unimpressive is fundamentally incompatible with real musicianship and, for that matter, the essential purposes of music education. Music is not a video game or a sporting event--it isn't just about getting to the next level or winning the contest--it's about creating good art, regardless of the technical difficulty involved.
THAT's the message I get from Tony's posts. It has nothing to do with trumpet pedagogy or whether being a band director makes you any less of a musician. It's about the fact that music is an art form, not a competitive sport, and that real musicians are first and foremost artists, not athletes. And although I think that music educators share some responsibility for promoting the notion of music as sport, there are plenty of people from without who have the same distorted view about what being a musician means.
Post Edited (2009-12-05 13:49)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-12-05 11:32
mrn said
" Music is not a video game or a sporting event--it isn't just about getting to the next level or winning the contest--it's about creating good art, regardless of the technical difficulty involved."
As for music not being competitive well that is pretty silly..what are auditions?
What are cash awards and scholarships but achievements at a higher level than others. What are these endowment funds..foundations for the arts, what are these orchestra grants from government etc.
Well what is good art? Or is this off topic..? Maybe some here can quantify something that is qualitative in matters.
Carl Maria Giulini said it best once at a rehersal..
"musicians egos always get in the way."
David Dow
Post Edited (2009-12-05 11:39)
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Author: Avie
Date: 2009-12-05 12:34
IMO she has a real nice tone for a 13 year old but otherwise not impressive to me. Being just a clarinet novice, I wonder how Doc Severinsen would gage her performance and future. Happy Holidays.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-05 13:34
David wrote:
Quote:
" Music is not a video game or a sporting event--it isn't just about getting to the next level or winning the contest--it's about creating good art, regardless of the technical difficulty involved."
As for music not being competitive well that is pretty silly..what are auditions?
Are you disagreeing with what I wrote, or what you think I wrote? I did use the word "just" in that sentence--read it again.
My beef is not with competition, per se, but with the idea that the *main purpose* of music is competition, not art.
Nielsen didn't write his clarinet concerto just so the Danes could have their own concerto competition.
Post Edited (2009-12-05 15:19)
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-05 15:28
From the beginning, this was my only point: "no extrordinary articulative, rhythmic nor technical complexity--I would say, well within the playing means of most 8th grade trumpet students with a little practice. However, she does play "what it is" very well."
MRN wrote regarding me: "You seem unimpressed with her performance because what seems to matter most to you is where she lies on some kind of hypothetical syllabus of graded trumpet pieces. At least that's what your above posts suggest, and you haven't yet said anything to the contrary."
In most of my postings, I have always said that her performance was very good--in fact, in another posting: "the subject of the thread, plays very well and I might add, above average for her age." To say that I seem "unimpressed" and "haven't yet said anything to the contrary" makes me wonder if you have even read my postings. I do think she played very maturally for her age, but still assert that *what* she performed was not that difficult at piece of music.
BTW, MRN, you and I do have something in common--we both played Weber's "Concertino" (LOL--hasn't everyone??). I was only a sophomore when I got my 1st Div Award at our State Music Festival--from judge, Himmie Voxman--and only had a Selmer Bundy clarinet to work with. I also played it that Spring as a special soloist with our All-District High School Band. Does this mean that I am better than you?? Absolutely not, nor do I intend to even imply so. Just means we have something in common as musicians and that I also have "been there and done that", so to speak. I do enjoy your postings, but please be more careful in the future in representing what I have posted.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-12-05 16:05
"As for music not being competitive well that is pretty silly..what are auditions? "
IMO, auditions are the means to an end, not the end itself. The musical organization conducting the auditions is using them to find the best possible musicians to fill its ranks so that it can accomplish its objective -- (re)creating good (great) art by performing at the highest level possible. I really wonder if members of the Chicago Symphony sit around all day obsessing about whether they are "ranked" higher than or lower than the Philadelphia Orchestra this week. I doubt it, and I certainly hope not.
BTW, IMNSHO, technical ability extends far beyond fast fingers and a fast tongue. For me, it boils down to control -- the ability to make an instrument produce whatever one wants it to. I was impressed at the absolute control the young lady demonstrated and the decisions she made in the process. In my experience, slow movements are often the most difficult to pull off even though they may sound like the easiest. They are a true test of skill because it takes skill to create good ensemble and the slightest lack of ensemble sticks out like a sore thumb.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-12-05 18:22
William wrote:
Quote:
I do enjoy your postings, but please be more careful in the future in representing what I have posted.
I can do that. I apologize for misinterpreting your remarks--you're right, you didn't say you weren't impressed and did have positive comments to make about her playing. It was actually Hank who described her performance as "nothing special."
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Author: Avie
Date: 2009-12-05 20:54
I just listened to Melissa again playing the trumpet and think I may have underestimated her.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2009-12-05 21:35
Hank Lehrer wrote:
"Pleasant but nothing really special."
Hank, would you please explain to us what this young lady could have done so that you would have interpreted her playing as "special"?
With my eyes closed, I listened, very intently, to each note. I heard no abrupt starts or stops. Each note just seemed to appear ever so softly and ended in the same manner. I enjoyed the slight vibrato that she used. I do believe I heard one false start, however, the rest of her playing, for me, totally obliterated that slight error.
So, as one who "simply wants to know more", would you please explain how she could have played this piece of music so that it would have tugged at your heartstrings and felt special to you.
Thank you in advance.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-12-06 02:23
I'd thought that Mike was doing such a good job of representing me that it wouldn't be necessary to say any more. And, I happened to be working quite hard.
However, it seems I need to go back to the beginning.
So, William -- on hearing her, you wrote that she played "musically and with good control", but that what she was playing was "not that difficult...well within the range of an 8th grade trumpet student, with a little practice."
But all serious musicians know that what ultimately counts is a mysterious something that is relational. It's to do with an ability to match one's playing to the context, so that what you do fits with what others do; or if there are no others, with what you have just done; AND, of course, with what the piece is 'about' -- especially pertinent in this case.
In a way, it's a bitch that the something is mysterious.
But all my own considerable teaching experience -- and I continue to maintain that what I'm about to say is independent of the instrument being taught -- leads me to the conclusion that the student has to 'catch on' to their own ability to do what I sketched above. You can provide a suitable context for the experience, but you cannot produce it by instruction.
So, what work did it do for you to say that "what she is playing is really not that difficult, well within the range of an 8th grade trumpet student, with a little practice."?
You could mean one of two things: either
(1) that your 8th grade trumpet student could 'get through it' acceptably, with a little practice, or
(2) that your 8th grade trumpet student could DO WHAT SHE DID, with a little practice.
I took it that you meant (2), and said, "Absolutely not". You then defended yourself as having meant (1), and said that I didn't have the experience of trumpet playing to challenge you.
If you indeed meant (1), then I have no quarrel with your statement.
But, I don't think you meant (1). I think you meant to USE your judgement of the technical simplicity of the notes, subsequently backed up by a parading of your ACADEMIC CREDENTIALS, for heaven's sake, in order to diminish the meaningfulness of her performance. ('Grumpy' was an understatement.)
That's why I said you weren't a musician, because no musician would do that. (Or, to be charitable, you are a musician, and just made a mistake on this occasion.)
Imagine if I were to say, of someone's performance of the Mozart clarinet concerto slow movement -- well, it's only a grade 8 piece, after all!
I didn't like everything about her performance. But what I didn't like pales into insignificance beside both what she did achieve, and her potential.
Of course, it might go wrong, as I said.
Tony
Post Edited (2009-12-06 02:42)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-12-06 02:54
Hi Dan,
That's a tough query to answer as one can not really anticipate or predict such things. The performance was pleasant but nothing special. But then what I might think is special you would say "nothing special."
I do almost sob when I hear how beautifully a friend of mine plays clarinet. She really has "it" for me.
Sorry if I disappoint!
HRL
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-12-06 02:58
Mr. Pay,
I believe that you have eloquently clarified things in my mind about your statements.
HRL
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2009-12-06 06:44
Hi Hank,
Nope, you didn't disappoint me at all! I believe some pieces of music along with certain tones produced by various instruments simply have a different affect upon different people. This may or may not be at the basis as to what all of the previous discussions listed above are really about.
Also, isn't it a wonderful feeling to be moved to tears by "any" sound from a particular musical instrument or piece of music! To me, that is the result of a "connection" between the performer and the listener that is magical, mysterious, delightful and something to be truly cherished!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-12-06 12:25
Hi Dan,
Agreed and that's why I said in my original post if "Are we focusing on the young player, the obvious emotions that hearing Taps played evoke, or what."
To take that thought one step further, when we get into intrinsic versus extrinsic issues as many of the comments have done, the chance for disagreement expands exponentially. The thing that I most object to though is an ad hominem attack which seems to have occurred here.
But I think "peace has come to the valley" in this thread and everyone returned home tired but happy (as my mom used to say).
HRL
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2009-12-06 16:23
Why doesn't she put the mp in the center of her lips?
Also I noticed the trumpet was pointing at an angle,not striaight?
Is this common?
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Author: William
Date: 2009-12-06 17:14
Tony, I did indeed mean to imply #1. I thought the young ladies performance was very good and--as I probably should have added--very musical. All that I mean't to say was that the technical content being performed--"Il Silenzio"--was not that difficult in response to the poster's contention that the video was "showing her playing great stuff". Her performance was "great stuff" but the music itself, was not. That's all.
I never meant to imply #2. Nor, btw for all other readers, do I mean to imply, Mr Pay, that I am backing down from your relentless challenges. I am a musician--or at the very least, a lot of people who know me (personally) think so--and, as a musician, a former music educator, and as an experianced music festival adjudicator, I would never discredit any players performance based solely on the technical content of the music being played.
Please, let us end this long misunderstanding of each others statements and let this thread return to the original issue--the great musical performance of a young lady trumpet player :>)
And, once again, here is the video:
http://videobomb.com/posts/show/22016 enjoy.........as I did.
Post Edited (2009-12-06 17:29)
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The Clarinet Pages
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