 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-11-24 21:17
Quick question for those "adjusters" out there...
I have two Albert System clarinets which I love dearly. I've been playing them for almost a year now. Both of them have a "problem" (maybe it's the player?) where the lower joint notes (both registers) come out WAY flat (20 cent or so) - otherwise the instruments play fine. I'm not talking about just low E, F or F#, etc - I mean EVERYTHING...starting from all fingers down on the upper joint (G or C).
Removing the bell actually helps a few cents on both clarinets, but I'm at a loss as to how to raise the pitch further, or what I could adjust to bring it up. Firming up my emboucher at variants all the way to the point of cutting the air flow too much to produce a good tone raises the pitch very minimally.
I've never had a problem with this on any of my boehm systems, so I am doubtful that it is my emboucher, but both of my favorite Alberts give me this problem.
So far, I've only played the Alberts in my own home, without accompaniament, so it has been liveable. However, I will soon begin playing them with some other folks, and I need to remedy the pitch issue first.
Thanks for any ideas - I'll try just about anything.
Fuzzy
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-11-24 23:34
(Disclaimer) I'm not a tech, and I don't play Albert clarinets, which may disqualify anything I say next.
Which notes are actually in tune with A440 - the flatter ones on the lower joint or the ones on the upper joint?
When you pull a mouthpiece or barrel out to bring an instrument's pitch down, you affect the notes disproportionately - the throat notes change the most, the rest of the upper stack a little less, and the longest fingerings least of all. If you're using a standard French mouthpiece on a clarinet that's meant to use a German-style one, maybe (this is a guess based solely on the fact that you have the same problem with both instruments) the mouthpiece is too short or its internal volume is too small to produce the correct pitch at all, but you're hearing the effect mostly on the shorter fingerings and it isn't until you get to the lower joint that the flatness finally becomes intolerable.
Obviously, if you're using a mouthpiece made to play with the Alberts, I've just wasted several bytes of bandwidth.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-25 00:36
If it's an Albert I assume it's an older clarinet. It could simply be that the instrument was not made to a higher standard that todays instruments are or more likely, the bore has changed over the years which is very common of older instruments. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-11-25 02:53
I think we're safe on the bore size simply due to the materials that were used. One is hard rubber. The other is (please don't roll your eyes)...a metal bore...not like most "metal clarinets" - but it does have a metal bore.
Is there any other possibilities, or any chance that a person could modify the lower section to raise the pitch a little? I'm wondering if I would have been better off buying a "high pitch" model?! lol
Fuzzy
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-11-25 05:54
Theoretically one could undercut the tone holes toward the upper end of the joint so that the effective air column becomes shorter for each note. But I don't know how much is needed for how big an effect.
Are the LJ notes out of pitch consistently? If yes, you could have the center socket shortened a bit, effectively moving everything say 2mm up.
But all that is best reviewed with a good repair person.
--
Ben
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2009-11-25 12:09
you might consider having someone who knows what they are doing drill a venthole in the bell. This should raise the low notes somewhat - this was done on one of my horns quite successfully
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-11-25 14:12
One possibility is that the barrels are not original to the horn and were selected to compensate for a traditionally higher pitch horn. The problem with this approach is that you would mess with the internal pitch and may have this very problem.
If the barrels are in fact the one and only true originals, perhaps these horns were built to be played with smaller mouthpieces (roughly the size of a "C" clarinet mouthpiece) that have narrower bores - producing a much higher generating pitch.
Just guesses really.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-11-25 21:42
UPDATE: Due to the numerous ideas pertaining to the mouthpiece possibly being the problem...I pulled out my old C Albert system clarinet, brushed it off and tried its mouthpiece on my Bb Alberts...
Something unique happened (which you all seemed to know, but I was still surprised none-the-less)...the pitch DID come up! However, the pitch came up about 40 cent, so now I'm 20 cent SHARP, but still in tune over most of the upper joint.
So, I went from being 20 cent flat to being 20 cent sharp - but does that give anyone any further ideas?
(The barrel on one is definately original, the other is definately a replacement. The lower joints are both original and match the clarinet they are attached to.)
Thanks!
Fuzzy
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-11-25 21:55
Well, now you can pull the barrel about 1mm, and between joints another millimeter, and see what gives.
Eventually you will land in a spot where the tuning is "reasonably good" overall, and you can use tuning rings to "fix" the amount of pulling.
NB: about ~10 cents should go unnoticed in most environments, provided you can lip up or down for long or exposed tones.
Key is not to stick to a tuner but to blend in with the rest of the orchestra (which isn't uniformly in tune everywhere)
--
Ben
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2009-11-25 22:06
Sure TicTacTux, just go ahead and state the obvious to make me feel silly!! LOL - guess I got my nose too far into this and missed the obvious!
Now I have my last question for everyone...is there any way a good mouthpiece "doctor" could modify my Bb mouthpieces (with filler, etc) so that they would react (in pitch) like the C mouthpiece, but still retain the characteristics of the Bb otherwise?
I ask because the Pyne and other mouthpiece I'm using on my clarinets are the result of about 20 years of searching for mouthpieces that I like, whereas the C mouthpiece is a generic closed, stuffy, random model from times past (with thread instead of cork).
I've never had a mouthpiece refaced or modified in any way - so please forgive my ignorance of what is/is not possible.
Thanks!
Fuzzy
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-11-25 22:26
fuzzystradjazz wrote:
> Sure TicTacTux, just go ahead and state the obvious to make me
> feel silly!!
Oy, that certaintly wasn't my intention. I didn't mean to make it sound that way, my apologies.
Now that you mention the different mouthpieces - are there obvious differences in their dimensions, like 2mm shorter with half the inner diameter etc? I'm just curious, I've never seen a "genuine" C mouthpiece.
There are a number of mouthpiece wizards hanging out in there. You might want to create a new thread with exactly that question in the subject.
--
Ben
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Author: lotuseclat767
Date: 2009-11-28 13:47
Attachment: Worship Clarinets_1.jpg (392k)
New to the board and not a professional clarinetist. Just an old man who has picked up the clarinet again after thirty years.
I've been playing Albert system clarinets for a year now myself and I love them. However, I've noticed the same pitch quirks that you've mentioned. I have an Eb Hp, a Bb Hp, and a Bp Lp that I'm playing now. I have Austrian, French, American builders and they are of wood, rubber, and plastic. All of them exhibit pitch changes for long notes and tend to be a little flat in the lower joint. I'm sure when I get my other Albert system clarinets rebuilt and start playing them, I'll find the same problem.
That being said, the Albert System clarinets have a different "sound" to them than the Boehm (I play an old Noblet N from the early sixties and several cheaper plastic Boehms for practice), all of which I play for a worship band in a small church. My Noblet (Boehm) is used for songs that are slow and melodic because of its ability to stay in pitch during long notes. I play my Albert system clarinets for jazzy and upbeat passages. I also found that my Bb Hp Albert is perfect for playing with the kids and their electric guitars!
As you discovered, I've been playing the mouthpiece shuffle on my two Bb Alberts and after shuffling around, I've found some mouthpieces that work out well and the lower joint is closer to remaining in pitch. Odd thing I discovered, the mouthpieces that work the best were made in the 1930's or earlier and the one for my Hp is actually a jazz mouthpiece! I'm sure my Alberts wouldn't sound right playing classical music, but they really sound great playing old and new Gospel songs that tend to be upbeat and jazzy.
Let us know if you discover anything else.
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