 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: elmo lewis
Date: 2009-11-06 19:11
¿When orchestras record a Mahler symphony in a recording studio do the wind players do the " Bells Up" thing? Is there an audible change in sound that the recording will capture or is it just a show for the audience?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-06 20:19
The "Schalltrichter auf" or "Schallbecher auf" sections are so the sound is directed out to the audience in a live performance.
I'm not entirely convinced this comes across so much in recordings as it does in live performances - maybe more noticeable with horns (giving more presence and more of an undampened sound), though not so much with woodwinds as these are generally in loud tutti passages. Though it depends on how the microphones are set out.
I was watching the CSO playing Mahler 6 - as American oboists generally play their instruments held at a very downward angle (mostly due to the influence of Tabuteau), they still maintained this downward embouchure but it seemed they had to bend over backwards to do the bells up bit. Looked especially uncomfortable for the cor player doing this who already looked uncomfortable playing cor with it at such a low angle anyway!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-06 21:21
When we recorded Mahlers 1st a few years ago we did do bells up out of habit. We do it in rehearsals and concerts so we do it at a recording session but more and more, at least for us, we record from live performances and do a "patch" session afterward to fix any spots that are not to the conductors liking.
By the way, we also bend our necks back to get the bells up otherwise we would probably sound flat and or unfocused. I've always believed it was more for show than musical reasons. How much louder can one play FFF? I can play just as loud, or louder, in my normal position, some may not agree. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-11-06 21:33
I've heard from conductors and audience members that "bells up" really makes a difference, and that the clarinets really stick out more in the section where the bells are lifted. One conductor even asked us to do it in part of a Tchaikowsky symphony.
Regarding whether one would hear it in a recording, that depends on where the microphones are placed.
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Author: Bennett ★2017
Date: 2009-11-06 23:41
Inasmuch as most of the sound comes out of the tone holes, rather than the bell, (except for notes with all fingers down), it's hard to see how it could make much of a difference. I've forgotten to put the bell on and only discovered it when I went for the lowest notes. I'd imagine bells-up sends most of the sound to the ceiling.
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-11-07 00:03
Bennett wrote:
> Inasmuch as most of the sound comes out of the tone holes,
> rather than the bell, (except for notes with all fingers down),
> it's hard to see how it could make much of a difference. I've
> forgotten to put the bell on and only discovered it when I went
> for the lowest notes. I'd imagine bells-up sends most of the
> sound to the ceiling.
You weren't supposed to notice that...
:-)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-11-07 01:52
I have heard that the purpose of "Schalltrichter auf" for clarinets in Mahler's works is to create a raucous sound (not just a louder one).
I don't know if that's true, and since I haven't played any Mahler myself, I don't know if it even makes sense. I just thought I'd throw the idea out there, since I'd heard it before and I'd like to know if it's even plausible.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-07 03:45
We've done all of the Mahlers symphonies many times over in my tenure with a variety of conductors and I don't ever remember any conductor saying anything about bells up or making the sound differently. We do it out of habit but once in a while a section misses doing it and no one even notices. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-11-07 07:31
Rather than blindly (or deafly!) agreeing with Ed or me, go out and try it with people listening in the audience. If you're doing a recording then get the listeners to stand where the microphones are placed.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-07 13:51
"If you're doing a recording then get the listeners to stand where the microphones are placed."
Could be interesting to have audience members stood in amongst the orchestra!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-11-07 14:21
Or hanging from the ceiling 15 or 20 feet above the stage apron.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-11-07 14:37
FWIW, I've always felt that the purpose of "bells up in the air" instructions in Mahler had more to do with visual effect. If it's done aggressively enough (not half-heartedly as many of us end up doing it when not being urged by the conductor) it does attract the eye of audience members toward what Mahler must have thought of as the important color in the context. Of course, if the player allows the instrument position to seriously affect his/her embouchure, some distortion in the sound may result, but most players end up contorting their necks to maintain control or the reed. I have never noticed a real difference in sound when I hear these passages as a listener in the audience. I think Mahler was acoustically sophisticated enough to understand that the sound isn't coming out of the bell of a clarinet or oboe. He did have a theatrical side, and in my opinion "Schalltichter in die Höhe" is one manifestation of it.
Karl
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-07 15:03
My point is that if we are asked we can play just as loud and raunchy in our normal position as with the bells up and there would be no noticeable difference in the sound of the music if that's what a conductor, or Mahler, wants. If asked, I can play pretty loud, spready, ugly and "raunchy" but I don't. With bells up I simply control my tone and play loud, which I do anyway when the music requires it without "bells up". It's all visual. ESP
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-11-07 15:23
And my point (seeing that Ed keeps repeating his), is that it's not just visual. But, as I said- try it out for yourself. Don't just take Ed's word for it...
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-11-07 19:09
Here's something I found with Google. The British conductor Norman Del Mar, who was considered an expert on R. Strauss and Mahler in his lifetime, wrote that the technique not only has an effect on the sound, but that the effect is a dramatic one. The problem, he says, is convincing woodwind players--understandably resistant to looking silly and making less than beautiful sounds--to hold the instrument at a perpendicular angle to their face.
Click the following link and read the paragraph under the heading "Extremes of Volume" to read Del Mar's remarks.
http://tinyurl.com/yb9vprc
I always assumed that holding the clarinet straight out was just a Benny Goodman/Artie Shaw thing and just for show. Reading about Mahler's use of this technique, though, suggests that perhaps there's a practical reason for guys like Artie Shaw to play that way--perhaps it's what allows them to be heard over a big brass section (especially when they're not individually mic'ed), as in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOi5vtxCbA
You know, another thing that occurred to me is that we've only been thinking of this in terms of where the sound that comes out the instrument projects. Maybe the apparent difference in volume has more to do with the air pressure and flow going into the instrument and the way the reed vibrates than it does with how the sound comes out.
Post Edited (2009-11-07 20:09)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-11-07 20:22
I've played a few Mahler symphonies, No. 1,2,3,6 and 7 to be exact. The reason for the bells up is so you can be heard above the rest of the orchestra because more often than not the oboes and clarinets and playing important thematic material be it the theme or a counter melody.
Coming onto the sound issue I've found that it never really effected me. The problem was remembering the notes. As Liquorice says "try it out for yourself".
Also if you ever find yourself principal in one of these symphonies lead by example and be encouraging because you'll always get one player who will do it half heartedly. You either do it or you don't.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Noqu
Date: 2009-11-08 11:57
Chris P wrote:
> Hang on - just have to check if "Schalltrichter auf" is in the bass
> clarinet parts to satisfy my curiosity!
No, the basses don't have "Schalltrichter in die Höhe". But I found a nice one in the 1st mvmt, rehearsal mark 37: "Nie wütend dreinfahren", which roughly translates as "Never butt in in wrath". Very expressive...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-08 14:45
Not that it really matter but we're doing the 4th this week. My part, bass clarinet and 3rd has bass in Bb and A, and clarinet in C, Bb and A . I do bells up regardless of my belief because I also believe that people go to live concerts to see as well as hear, so let them see. Those that can see the ww section probably think we are playing louder or more raunchy because our heads are bent way back so we can keep our embouchures in a normal position by playing with the bells up even though the sound is coming through the tone holes, except for some break notes, mostly the B, then let them be happy. It's all fun! ESP
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Author: srattle
Date: 2009-11-08 16:58
I've never understood why anyone would do Schalltrichter Auf in Mahler, and attempt to make it sound the same as normal.
Mahler was an amazing composer, and clearly understood each instrument, and their capabilities well, so he must have known that putting the bell up on a clarinet, without getting whiplash, must create a different, more diffused, less refined sound. Seems perfectly clear to me, that Mahler intended to hear a different sound than normal.
I seems very strange to try to bend your neck back so that you can play bell up, but with everything else 'normal'
In that respect, I would say it would be very important to record with bells up, to get this different sound.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2009-11-08 17:23
srattle- what you wrote really makes sense to me. That's why I hate the arrogance of musicians with the attitude that "composers didn't really know what they wanted". Thank you!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-09 01:03
Well as one final foot note to the bells up idea I want to say this. I just finished doing three performances of Mahlers 4th and we, as well as the oboes, do bells up when the music asks. The reason we bend out necks is because we don't play like I believe the clarinet players did in the days of Mahler. That is we keep the clarinets much closer in to our body than they did then, perhaps some still play that way in Germany, I'm not sure. So if we were to simply hold the clarinet straight out, sort of Benny Goodman style, I think we would get a more unpleasant effect than even Mahler had in mind. While I was playing a passage with my bell up I began to think this. Since the tone actually comes out of the tone holes and not the bell, especially the notes in the left hand that are mostly used for bells up, the altissimo register notes, the sound is actually going up to the ceiling not out to the conductor and the concert hall. Those tone holes are now facing up instead of out in the direction of the audience. I don't mind doing bells up, I think it's kind of cool actually, but one again I must say that I can more readily do what I think Mahler wanted but keeping my instrument if my regular position. By the way, in those tutti passages the flutes, bassoons, english horn and bass clarinet keep their instruments in their regular position for obvious reasons. There is one neat place in the 4th symphony that the 2nd and 3rd clarinets do bells up in a solo duet for a few bars, I think that's neat but I could get the same effect by not putting my bell up. It does look cool though to the people in the balcony. Of course those on the level floor have no idea we're playing "bells up". OK, that's a long foot note but I'm through with this posting. I say, glasses up at this point. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-11-09 04:09
You know, something else occurred to me. When you play a clarinet with the instrument perpendicular to your face, you're essentially playing it as if it were a saxophone. Saxophones, of course, play louder than clarinets (given the same degree of effort).
So that raises the question....how much of the difference in loudness between clarinets and saxophones is due to the difference in embouchure/mouthpiece angle? And could this difference be what Mahler was trying to exploit?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-09 14:53
When playing clarinet in big band settings, I will hold the clarinet up high so it's at the same playing angle as saxes, and also to direct the sound out front so it's being directed at the microphone instead of being drowned out by the other saxes - and when standing up I can read the music on the stand by looking down through the gap between the clarinet and my left arm, but not lowering my head to do so.
Likewise if I was playing Mahler on clarinet I'd do the same thing - though the only times I've ever played Mahler were on oboe/cor which is held out front with a similar playing angle as a sax anyway (standard posture in UK/Europe), and I play soprano sax at this same angle as well, and don't tilt my head back to do this - just lift the instrument to a higher playing angle.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2009-11-27 02:20
We had a guest conductor for the 7th Symphony one year who was a spectacular Mahler interpreter. During the course of the 1st rehearsal, the conductor asked that all passages marked bells up be played with the bells as high as possible - for us in the soprano part of the section, bells over the top of the stand - heads bent back - bells up like a trumpet.
Someone in the ww section said under their breath "What difference is that going to make?" and the conductor overheard them. We were playing some of the ww fanfares so prominent in the 1st mvmt.
The conductor asked that the passage of a few measures be played by the ww section alone - first bells down and then repeated once again with bells fully in the air.
The difference in character and volume was so startlingly obvious that after only 2 or 3 measures with bells up, the entire ww section had to stop because we were laughing out loud and couldn't continue. What a brilliant idea to get their point across.
Whether that sound (compared to ignoring the marking or just slightly lifting the bells upward) was what Mahler actually intended is perhaps debatable. The result of that particular demonstration on that day with the CSO was not.
Gregory Smith
http://www.gregory-smith.com
Post Edited (2009-11-27 02:21)
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Author: kdk
Date: 2009-11-27 06:59
Gregory Smith wrote:
> The difference in character and volume was so startlingly
> obvious that after only 2 or 3 measures with bells up, the
> entire ww section had to stop because we were laughing out loud
> and couldn't continue. What a brilliant idea to get their point
> across.
>
Well, wait a minute... Why was it so funny that everyone broke down laughing? *That* certainly couldn't have been Mahler's intention?
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-27 15:05
"Well, wait a minute... Why was it so funny that everyone broke down laughing? *That* certainly couldn't have been Mahler's intention?"
Maybe not, but at least they were all enjoying what they were doing and there's never any harm in that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2014-11-13 21:35
Help - I need a bit of advice on this. The orchestra I play in is doing Mahler 5 soon and we have found that when I play bell up I get very flat. I'm sure it must have something to do with the fact that, when the instrument is at a different angle, your embouchure changes somewhat and also some weight and pressure are removed from your lower lip.
Any advice as to how to keep up to pitch better? Obviously I have discussed it with the conductor and he agrees that if I can't get in tune I had better not do the bells up but I'd like to if possible.
Thanks for your help in advance.
Vanessa.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2014-11-14 00:42
I'd say 95% of this is certainly a visual "look at us" cue to concentrate the audience on a particular passage. For this reason, whenever leading a section in a Mahler symphony (which I've been privileged to do in all of them), I spend a little time on practicing to make sure we all go up in a synchronised fashion - and just a little bit before we play, so that there is time for the effect to register.
Having listened to our recordings, I think I can hear a difference, but I agree it's more in terms of a certain coarseness of sound than volume per se - although a more cutting tone has the same effect in terms of being heard more easily.
But undoubtedly you also pay a price in intonation, however hard you try to bend your neck back. And this gets particularly problematic in some of the passages where the "bells up" seems to go on for ages. As far as I'm aware, Mahler never wrote "bells down", so you need to decide when enough is enough. Some examples have similar passagework that goes on for many lines, but I usually tend to stay up for (say) 4 bars - after which the point has been made, and maybe the audience might prefer to hear it in tune. Again, the main thing is to make sure that everyone comes down together - like strings agreeing on the same bowing.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2014-11-14 03:05
I think one of the major facets about getting those sections in tune is to remember to tilt your head (and body) back at the same angle the clarinet is tilted up. I tend to scoot forward in my chair some, and then lean my body backwards, with the clarinet in the same basic position, only the clarinet has raised up.
(I hope that makes as much sense written as it does in my head!)
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2014-11-14 06:21
Now this has been revisited, I saw an interesting documentary a little while ago where Sir Mark Elder demonstrated the effect "Schalltrichter auf" was to have, especially for the oboists (and would also apply to clarinets too).
As was mentioned earlier on here, it is to create a harsh, rustic, shawm-like sound (or 'unfocussed' as was also mentioned) for a specifically raw and raucous tone even with the tuning problems it gave. So instead of tilting your head back and maintaining the same playing angle and nice tone, lift the instrument up high (while keeping your head in the normal playing position) to deliver a raucous sound in these sections.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2014-11-14 13:12
Thanks everybody - very useful: I'll do a bit of experimenting!
Vanessa.
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Author: HANGARDUDE
Date: 2014-11-16 16:01
Hi Vanessa,
As I have listened and did the bells up technique myself, and as well as an amateur acoustician, I would say it also has an effect on the sound, though the sound radiates more than beams. It makes the sound of the clarinets and oboes stand out to a certain degree. When you play at the normal 30-degree(oboe) or the 45-degree (clarinet), the sound will be blocked by the music stands and the musicians in front of you, and of course obscured by adjacent instruments, and the projection may be a bit reduced. But at the bells up position, the entire instrument, including its tone holes and the bell, are lifted clear from most obstructions and obscurations to the sound, and in turn the projection becomes easier and radiates out further.
So to sum it up, I believe Mahler wanted a more pointy sound that radiates out, and often with a raw character. I'd say the bells up technique would have a considerable effect on the sound, but of course as with everything, it also depends on the player and his/her setup and technique.
Josh
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Author: kdk
Date: 2014-11-16 19:29
Possibly tangential to this discussion:
I heard the Philadelphia Orchestra last night play the Dvorak 8th symphony conducted by a guest, Jakub Hruša. In the the finale there is the C minor section, played on Bb clarinets (the rest of the movement is for A). The tune is initially played mezzo-piano by the oboes and clarinets. It's played later fortissimo by all the woodwinds. On that ff return, the clarinets and oboes put their bells up (very high) in classic Mahler style. Dvorak doesn't call for it in the score, so I imagine either Hruša just likes it that way or it's maybe a Czech tradition.
It's the first time I've ever seen it, I think, outside of Mahler.
Karl
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2014-11-17 15:22
This was also discussed in August on this board, search for the thread 'Clarinet above perpendicular'.
In this thread I presented a link to a scientific explanation of the acoustical effects of 'aiming at the audience'.
Quote from that thread:
See for background information http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/clarinetacoustics.html, scroll down to Cut-off frequencies and the following paragaraph, Frequency response and acoustic impedance of the clarinet.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2014-11-18 00:01
>> This was also discussed in August on this board, search for the thread 'Clarinet above perpendicular'.
>> In this thread I presented a link to a scientific explanation of the acoustical effects of 'aiming at the audience'.>>
Yes, it would be good if we had more of this sort of post on the BBoard.
I'm totally not interested in those people who are confused themselves, and then who presume to demonstrate that confusion here whilst telling others what's so.
That's especially when they say that they CELEBRATE their lack of attention to detail, and their ignorance of the science.
Still, though the understanding of cutoff frequency is helpful, it's not obligatory. It's not too difficult to listen to another clarinet player who's pointing his instrument at you, and directly experience the high frequency sound that isn't 'clarinettised'.
(Obviously that's what Mahler had done; I don't suppose he had much background in theoretical acoustics:-)
Tony
Post Edited (2014-11-18 00:13)
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Author: lenc
Date: 2014-11-19 01:10
A very interesting thread! Can someone please give an example of "Schalltrichter auf" or "Schallbecher auf" (Bar/measure number(s) and which Mahler symphony?)
Thanks!
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Author: lenc
Date: 2014-11-20 23:21
Thank you Chris!
I'm a beginner clarinetist and love to listen to Mahler with score at hand.
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