 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-11-02 00:14
Just listened to a fav NPR program, where Ron Hockett played a couple of tunes and talked about the C M S at <Riverwalk.org>, a fine, nostalgic, discussion re: an antique? sax, esp for us old cats !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-11-02 00:34
I used to play in a DC-area band with Ron Hockett. Excellent player but not the friendliest guy in the world. He played clarinet in that particular group, no sax.
I have two restored C-Melody saxes with a third one 'in work'. I've actually played mine on some gigs, they are a lot of fun and can certainly be played in-tune with modern groups (I use a variety of tenor sax mouthpieces on mine). One annoying feature of all C-Melodies I've encountered is the angle of the neck which actually points the mouthpiece BELOW the horizontal, forcing one to play with the horn to the side and tilted way back. I can't stand playing that way, so I re-angle the necks to about the same slightly-above-horizontal angle as a tenor sax neck.
Fun horns, with (as you might expect) a tone quality about halfway between alto and tenor saxes.
There are also vintage C-soprano saxes, but I presume these are not what are being discussed.
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2009-11-02 00:35
I love playing my C-melody sax! Especially on ballads, I think it's particularly effective.
For some awesome modern C-melody sax playing, check out Dave Pietro, a saxophonist in NYC. He's an absolute monster!
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Author: ned
Date: 2009-11-02 03:15
Interesting stuff!
I switched from tenor to alto a few years ago, because I preferred playing saxophone in the higher range - I've not encountered the CMS at all though in Oz, although I saw one in a shop at one time.
Can you tell me if this version of the saxophone meant to be a lead instrument, and, hence the the word ''melody'' is therefore used in it's description?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-11-02 03:44
From what I've read, the C-Melody sax was invented and only built in the 1920s during the huge saxophone craze that swept the USA that decade. It was made in concert pitch to ostensibly permit every family to own one and play sheet music (piano, church, popular songs, etc.) right off the page without the need for transposition. Essentially it was supposed to be a "melody" sax for the everyday person, hence the name.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-11-02 12:23
David, there's plenty of evidence for your comments in the C-melody method books and advertisements from the 1920s. The teaching materials sold with the saxes look bizarrely unrealistic, along the lines of, "Learn to play the saxophone in five easy lessons." I think it's no accident that many of the C-melody saxes I see for sale (sometimes with this type of ad and a comically bad lesson booklet in the case) are in much better condition than altos and tenors from the same period.
Most of those innocent wannabes who believed someone could learn the sax in a few easy lessons probably realized they'd been bamboozled and gave up fast. A few years ago, I bought a silver-plated Buescher "True-Tone" C-melody from the 1915-1920 period. The sax has the original, white leather pads (no resonators) that are still white and not even grooved-in on the keys that stay open unless pressed. No plate-wear at all. No tooth-marks on the mouthpiece. That sax looks as if it's never been played. I got it for $120 and that was at an indoor junktiques mall, no less -- because the stigma that C-melodies are for chumps helps keep the prices low. They're the most affordable saxophones around. They're quite useful for people who don't have that outmoded, snobbish attitude about them. I've left that Buescher in original condition and intend to preserve it that way. The C-melody I play is a "Grand Opera" (stencil Conn from the "Chu" period) -- worth next to nothing but plays way better than I deserve!
Btw, the Smithsonian displayed a C-melody in the Museum of American History, until the staff removed that display for the recent renovation. The staff had labelled the sax as a tenor. In response to a suggestion box comment from me, a museum staffer wrote to tell me they'd re-write that label to call the sax a C-melody tenor. I haven't seen the display since the museum re-opened.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-11-02 13:18
Rudy Wiedoeft played the C-melody sax. There's some amazing playing from him on http://www.clarinetclassics.com/cc0018.htm.
Does anyone know what's happening with the Clarinet Classics site? It's been down for some time now. There may be hope since they're related to Cello Classics, Oboe Classics and other Classics sites, which are still up, and they've been advertising.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2009-11-02 13:57
I, too, am a fan of the C-melody. I second the comment about Dave Pietro. Fine player!
For a period of time I had two C-melodies: a 1919 curved-neck (tenor style neck) and a 1921 Buescher. Both of them had intonation problems. I had a considerable amount of work done to the Conn with only marginal success at improving the intonation. I also tried as many C-Melody mouthpieces as I could get my hands on. I had the best results with a c-melody mouthpiece that Ralph Morgan custom made for me. But, even with it, intonation was still problematic. I was green with envy whenever I spoke with other C-melody guys who told me their horns had decent intonation.
Finally, I reached a tipping point. I acquired a 1934 Buescher New Aristocrat tenor and I was so blown away with it that I no longer felt attracted to the C-melody and I used those horns as part of a trade for the New Aristocrat.
One of the things that I love about the C-melody is its unique sound. In that respect, the bore diameter of the C-melody is proporational smaller than any other member of the saxophone family. It's along similar lines as the bore characteristics of the French horn in relationship to other brass instruments. This gives the C-melody its unique sound.
It's my sense that the C-melody was originally designed to be mostly performed indoors with concert pitch instruments -- such as piano, violin, etc. -- for family entertainment. This can explain the unique bore of the C-melody. In this way, the C-melody has a somewhat softer and more mellow type of sound. It's not as projecting as the more common Eb and Bb saxophones. If I remember correctly, the alto and tenor, especially, were originally designed by Adolph Sax for use in military bands. Sax also conceived of a set of saxophones in C and F for use in orchestras.
Given the C-melody's unique design and tonal characteristics, I would take exception whenever a sax buddy called the instrument a "C tenor".
The C-melody is a great instrument -- especially if one has a horn with reasonably good intonation -- and it deserves greater use among saxophonists.
One discovery I made with the C-melody is how good it sounded in a big band sax section on the 1st tenor part (had to transpose of course). The sound of the C-melody made a great transition in tone color between the altos and the tenor. Then, if the 2nd tenor player has a big dark sound, it in turn made a good transition to the bari sax. The trick, of course, is for the C-melody to have enough projection and power for it to balance with the other saxes in the section.
Besides Dave Pietro, I can think of Joe Lovano and Scott Robinson who play a C-melody on occassion.
Roger
Post Edited (2009-11-02 14:04)
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Author: Arlee
Date: 2009-11-02 15:50
C Melody wind instruments were also known as "parlor horns".
- use your imagination -
Arlee
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-11-02 16:43
I have a fairly pristine c-melody I picked up from the original owner (she played it in Marching Band back in the 30s). No aux hi-F, and it's a stencil (Martin, I think), but it cleaned up beautifully. Intonation is iffy, with either alto or tenor mouthpieces, so I got a Morgan c-melody m'piece for it--but none of my ligs or m-piece caps fit the Morgan. So it sits, unplayed and completely out of adjustment...for now.
(By the way, Dave, I attempted to address that downward-pointing neck tube shortly after I got the horn, but all I did was split the tip of the tube along the solder join, and put a fold in the neck. Fortunately not beyond the capabilities of a good repairman to fix, and in my defense, I was 14 at the time.)
Incidentally, I'm delighted to post the U-tube link to the incomparable Dan Higgins (accompanied by Dustin Higgins) playing a short selection on c-melody. Sounds great, makes me want to get mine fixed, even if I can't play it.
Enjoy--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E06ZSx2iT-w
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2009-11-02 17:31
I also had one once, poor intonation and needed an overhaul. I recall that neither the slto nor tenor mps were good, and possibly were the int. trouble . Is it possible to somehow use an alto clarinet mp, D S et al ? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: blazian
Date: 2009-11-02 21:35
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I'm a frequent C-mel sax player. It's pretty nice.
Mine is a nickel Holton in pretty good condition. It has a G# trill and the fork Eb, which both look to be somewhat standard(?) on C-mel saxes. The key that's normally for LH1 (the clarinet A key location) is more of a RH palm key. If there was a high F# key I would find the different placement impractical. Also the neck is string-wound instead of corked. I have the original reddish hard rubber and metal MP as well. All the pads are original except for two which I replaced. They're the softest (ready squishiest) white leather pads I've seen on any instrument.
The neck is a bit iffy to use with the angle as some of you have mentioned. Great thing I know a great someone to re-angle it. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
I think this instrument is one of the most practical instruments to play. It's simple to learn for people who've already started a woodwind and the key makes it easy to play in a more jam-session setting.
Added:
I attached a few pictures of my C-mel: A full sax body shot, The RH key arrangement, the fork Eb hole, and the neck (to show the angle). The full body shot makes my sax look a little bent but that's just my phone's imperfect panoramic mode.
- Martin
Post Edited (2009-11-02 21:42)
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Author: mikeW
Date: 2009-11-02 23:14
Ah, yes. The C-Melody. The sax that combines the raw power of the alto with the lyrical sweetness of the tenor and the intonation of Florence Foster Jenkins...
I remember reading (but have no reference for it) that the C-saxes date back to Adolphe Sax himself, as he envisioned two sets of instruments, the Eb- and Bb-pitched horns for military bands and similar C- and F-pitched instruments for orchestras. [Oops. Sorry. I see someone else already mentioned this. I need to read threads more carefully, first...]
In addition to the C-melody sax, there are quite a few C-soprano saxes out there. I knew one fellow who used to use one in place of oboe in band and pit settings. There are apparently F-altos out there, but they are quite rare. I don't know if any F-baritones exist.
One of the selling points of the C saxes was that one could simply read along from the sheet music and play along with the piano, hence the "parlor instrument." In addition to Rudy Wiedoeft, previously mentioned, another great C-melody player of the period was Frankie Trumbauer, who played with Paul Whiteman for a number of years, as well as Bix Beiderbecke. Lester Young is supposed to have been a big fan of Trumbauer's cool style of playing.
Post Edited (2009-11-02 23:17)
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Author: Wes
Date: 2009-11-04 03:08
Yes, I also have some great C Melody saxes. One Conn is gold plated and in excellent condition. Yet, an almost identical silver plated Conn sounds more focussed to me. Despite their condition, they are not worth much on the market.
While I've taken them to sessions, I prefer the tenor instead partly because a lot of standard tunes are easier or possible on the tenor in the low register because of the added one step lower range but also because of the mechanism on the Selmer tenor. I have a Beechler metal mouthpiece made for the C instrument and sold to me very inexpensively by Elmer Beechler.
What fun!
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-11-05 20:21
Quote David Speigelthal: "One annoying feature of all C-Melodies I've encountered is the angle of the neck which actually points the mouthpiece BELOW the horizontal, forcing one to play with the horn to the side and tilted way back. I can't stand playing that way, so I re-angle the necks to about the same slightly-above-horizontal angle as a tenor sax neck."
Assuming you are talking about a curved-neck here, as some of the C-mels have straight neck. I've never heard of re-angling. Does that affect the intonation of a saxophone? Is it difficult and could the same thing be done to my modern Yamaha tenor?
Much of the discomfort players have with the C-mel is from the misplaced strap ring. These were placed for sitting down while laying the C-mel's bell on one's knee. If you attempt to stand up and play some of these horns, you're in danger of smacking yourself right in the mouth. I've owned six c-melodys and ended up keeping the Holton with front F. It had the best sound, decent intonation and the strap ring is in the correct place. After trying many tenor mouthpieces, i now use an alto piece. This depends on the horn, because on the Buescher, a tenor mpc worked best. The intonation on C-melodies is no worse than tenor saxes of the same era.
The name "C Melody" was referring to the fact that a player could simply read the melody from piano, violin or flute music without transposing.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-11-06 01:56
Re-angling the neck of a saxophone (an operation I've also performed on numerous bass clarinet necks) does not affect the intonation, response or tone of the instrument if done correctly. A slight change in angle is not difficult to accomplish, and can also be done to a tenor sax neck (which you might notice is nearly identical to a C-Melody neck other than the placement of the octave pip). Of course I'm talking about the C-Melodies with an S-shaped neck like a tenor, I've never seen a truly "straight-necked" C-Melody but Conn's model has a simply curved neck resembling that of an alto sax.
I have the same issue with neckstrap ring placement and have relocated them on all my C-Melodies. I also relocate the thumbhooks as most of them are uncomfortable for me.
My two working C-Melodies are a silver-plated King and a black-lacquered Holton stencil, the third one (totally disassembled at the moment) is another Holton stencil which I'm going to keep in its original gold lacquer. The two working horns play very well in tune using any of my tenor sax mouthpieces. I suppose alto sax mouthpieces would also work but I haven't bothered to experiment with them.
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