 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TianL
Date: 2009-11-02 19:38
Whenever I try to practice a little more, I often get cuts inside my bottom lip. I heard people who practice for extended hours everyday put things on top the bottom teeth to protect the lip, and I tried it too, but I feel that even a thin piece of protector makes the feel different.
So I'm wondering, is there something that you can put on the cut to make the heal very quickly? Then if I get a cut in the morning, it will be healed next time I practice.
Thanks!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-11-02 19:49
A cut on the tooth side of the lip means that you are placing far too much pressure when you play. With "normal" technique this will not happen unless you are practicing about 6+ hours per day.
Try softer reeds.
As far as healing, I would just use some Listerine, but I am not sure that it would make any difference, actually.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-11-02 19:59
Do you have really sharp edges on the top of your front teeth? these can exacerbate your problem. If so have your dentist smooth them off.
Cuts heal at natures rate, better to prevent them.
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2009-11-02 20:47
A cut over time will turn into a callus. If you put something over your teeth it will feel different, however this is not always a bad thing.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-11-02 21:45
I'm on this side with Skygardener. I've been told that I do not have even bottom teeth but I can play for 6+ hours without sore bottom lip. It's only when I'm tired and have not practiced for a while that I sometime get some sore lip but not much. I've tried to use paper on my bottom teeth but I don't like it because then I get the feel that there is actually something under my bottom lip. If I don't use something over my bottom teeth I feel just nothing unless I'm playing for a long time high up.
The bad thing about this all is that my bottom lip is not always as firm as it should be when I'm playing the high register so a little pressure should be used,not biting of course,but a little pressure and a stretched bottom lip make for more security in the high register as well as correct tongue position.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-02 21:50
I used to feel the same way but after years of playing in pain I finally got used to using a lip saver. Even now if I play for an extended period of time it can get sore so I use Anbesol after I play all the time. I just place a little on my finger and rub it on my lower lip where the teeth leave the grove. It's an oral anesthetic and acts as a cleanser. That allows the lip to heal quicker. I had my teeth dulled a bit when I was a student but I still use a lip saver, it took some time to adjust but it's worth it. I use floral tape, white. You can get it anyplace that sells imitation flowers. You can make it as thick as you need, I use four layers, you may want to start with two and work up from there till you get where you need to be. There's no glue on it but it sticks to it self so you can fold it onto it self to get the thickness you desire. Some players just use more pressure than others and can't do anything about it. Get used to a lip saver, it's worth it. People use other things as well for lip savers but that works great for me. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: TianL
Date: 2009-11-03 14:30
Thanks for everyone's help. I used to bite even harder and I already reduced my reed strength but I feel that if I use even softer reed, my sound gets too thin. But I thought about all your comments, it could be because the corners of my mouth get tired too quickly, which results in more biting to compensate for the same pressure on reed.
Ed, for the floral tape, after you put on your teeth, does it not fall off? Also I guess you would change to a new piece every time, right?
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-03 14:44
No in both cases. It does not fall off because I "mold" it to my lower teeth after making it damp in my mouth and it keeps it's shape pretty well. It may take a few days to get used to using it, like anything else. I re use one a few times, depending of how it holds up, usually 2-3 times the most. I place it in a small plastic holder. I cut a piece large enough to fold in half and then in half again making it four folds. I found two folds not thick enough, but six to thick for me. You have to experiment. It cost about a buck and a half and one roll lasts me well over a year. If you feel better about not re using one just make several at a time and change every time you play. As I said before, people us different things as lip savers. One of our players uses surgical tape, whatever works. You only have to cover the front 4-6 bottom center teeth, you don't want to much material in your mouth. Good luck, ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-11-03 15:31
Why use it if you don't feel anything after a week of 6+ hours of practice even if your teeth are not even ?
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-11-03 18:56
"I feel that if I use even softer reed, my sound gets too thin."
Use more air and put more of the mouthpiece into your mouth.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-03 19:27
Iceland, I must respectfully say that everyone isn't like you. I know many professional clarinet players, I'm sure you don't know anyone that use a lip saver. There are several reasons to use a lip save of which comfort is only one. My dentist is always concerned about my lower lip. Any part of the body that is constantly under pressure can have a negative effect, he claims it can even cause cancer. In any case, some of us, for what ever reason, cut into our lower lip when playing for an extended period, for me even after an hour. When that happens the cut hurts and takes at least a day without playing to heal so why would I not use something to allow me to be comfortable and be able to play for extended periods. By the way, I don't need it when playing bass clarinet only clarinet. Some people will say I shouldn't be using as much pressure as I do to make my teeth cut my lip but I do, I always have, that's just the way I play and my lower teeth are sharp and I have strong jaw muscles. I studied with some pretty good teachers and no one ever said I was doing anything wrong with my embouchure and I love my sound and control. There's no reason not to use a lip saver if it makes you more comfortable period. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: TianL
Date: 2009-11-03 19:57
Ed, sorry, one more question for you: so I suppose you would use it whenever you play, like including concert, rehearsal, practice, etc, right?
Iceland/skygardener, thanks for your suggestion too. I'll definitely experiment to see if I can reduce the biting pressure a bit. For me it's probably due to a weak embouchure after all.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-11-03 22:27
Tom Ridenour says in his little book with the ATG system that majority of professionals have developed a biting habit to get satisfactory result from their unbalanced reeds. I read here recently on the BBoard about that Stanley Drucker just went through a box of Vandoren reeds and if they worked on first blowing then great but if they didn't he tossed them away. I like lot of things that Tom says but lot of things I don't like or at least take with a grain in the salt(like his praise for double lip embouchure). And I'm not saying that I know how Drucker really plays or TianL or Ed Palanker but I'm just curious to know if you guys think that Tom Ridenour has something here?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-11-03 22:52
Iceland clarinet wrote:
> I read here
> recently on the BBoard about that Stanley Drucker just went
> through a box of Vandoren reeds and if they worked on first
> blowing then great but if they didn't he tossed them away.
Stanley recently played a recital in our area and I was able to talk with him backstage for quite a while.
He still uses Vandoren V12 #4 1/2 and thinks the quality of the reeds has been pretty good.
He told me that when he finds a good V12 reed it takes a few days for it to settle in, and the only work he might do on the reed is to slightly thin the tip, if needed.
Interestingly, he told me that when he was playing with the NYP often he would use the same reed for all 4 concerts (Thurs, Fri, Sat, Sun)
...GBK
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-04 02:23
Tian, I play with it all them. I used to only use it when my lip was soar or bleeding. Then I began using it only when I practiced. About 40 years ago when a student introduced me to floral tape I began using it all the time. After a few days it began to feel so natural using it that I just put it on automatically.
"Island, Tom Ridenour says in his little book with the ATG system that majority of professionals have developed a biting habit to get satisfactory result from their unbalanced reeds." As much respect as I have for many things that Tom has done I think this statement is nonsense. I believe he says this trying to sell his reed tool. I balance my reeds very well, have for years. I cut my lip without a lip guard because I have sharp teeth and a strong jaw. The jaw on a human has the strongest muscle relative to it's size and can apply an incredible amount of pressure. It has nothing to do with my reeds being unbalanced. If Tom was right one would only cut their lip on the heavy side of the reed, most of us that cut our lips cut equally through out unless someone has very uneven tooth.
Stanley Drucker told me many years ago, before Vandoren made V12s, that he used regular Vandorens when they only made one type, that he used #4s and clipped them all automatically, found the best one in the box, used it all week and repeated that the next week. I don't know if he exaggerated but I had no reason not to believe him then or now. What does this have to do with using a lip saver, nothing. If you cut into you lip use a lip saver. ESP
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-11-04 04:51
Yeah your are probably right Ed and Tom also says that Double lip embouchure solves many bad habits that single lip does make you do but then again secure in the high register is not as good and it's harder to focus the sound. This at least I found when trying it myself and my teacher also said he wasted valuable time practicing double lib only to found Tony Pay saying to him in a master class/summer school "what the hell are you doing you are making life more difficult" or something like that. Many other teachers had also tell my teacher this too. Well I really don't know the story right so it would be nice if Tony Pay(who often writes here) would tell us why he thinks double lip is bad.
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Author: TianL
Date: 2009-11-04 19:02
I think Mr. Ridenour still has a point. I have both his ATG book and the Educator book. He advertises to keep the jaw the same position, and then use the right hand thumb to push the clarinet up in order to increase the reed pressure. He says that this way one can avoid biting and says that the this kind of "frictional pressure" on the reed is different (and better) than the pressure resulted from biting.
According to him, if one uses double lip, then it's more likely to use this kind of "push-in" way to increase the pressure on the reed, because for a double-lip embouchure, if one just bites a little bit harder, the upper lip will get cut in for sure. So he just suggests to use it to correct the biting habit I guess. I just can't do it though.
For the balanced / unbalanced reed, yeah I agree with Ed, I don't think people bite just because of balanced/unbalanced reeds. There must be many other factors. And also, the idea of balancing the reed is definitely valid, but now I think about, when Tom does the demo, a lot of it is due to the reed gets softer overall, so of course it will play easier After all that said, I still use the ATG system everyday. It's pretty awesome and extends the life of practice reeds by a lot.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-11-04 20:21
I should mention that it might depend on what part of the lower lip you make contact with. I need a lip saver because my lip contact is at the thinner part of my lip, just about where the pink and flesh color meet. Many players have the contact all on the pink part which is thicker. I play that way because I play that way, I can't remember why or when I started to play that way but it seems I've done that all my life and I like the result, as a matter of fact, I prefer it.
I do agree that playing double lip is a way to avoid cutting your lip because through necessity one has to use more embouchure muscle and less jaw pressure. I've often asked my students to practice double lip for a few minute each day when I feel there's too much tension in their embouchure. I still think though that some people naturally cut into their lip and should use a lip saver. ESP
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