 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: knotty
Date: 2009-10-21 16:53
Pad installation not so straight forward. With my new, self refurbished Bundy, I expected the scale to play beautifully but rather, just a few notes sounded, the rest were awfully distorted, weak and squeaky, only good note was the open G. Boy was I let down!..LOL
So after scratching my head for a few minutes, I got out my super bright led flashlight and glanced the light over each pad and noticed a few didn't have the tone hole impression full circle, it was more like a half moon.
I almost knew that was the problem but, the question was how to heat the key without burning the clarinet body or pad so got out my small soldering iron and applied it to the key top and in a few seconds, the pad became movable so re-aligned the pad to the tone hole.
Now the clarinet plays up and down the entire scale flawlessly. Amazing how such a seemingly small thing can make such a difference.
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-21 17:10
Provided you have good contact and conduction a soldering iron is a useful way to melt glue (though I haven't ever tried that myself as of yet) - this may not work so well on lacquered keys and may burn or mark the lacquer where the soldering iron tip is in contact, so best done on plated or unplated keys.
When using a flame to melt the glue, you don't direct the flame into the pad cup (ie. with the flame perpendicular to the pad cup), but use the edge of the flame so it's glancing the back of the pad cup and also keeping the heat away from the body (which is very important when working on plastic clarinets).
Check the pressure around the circumference of the pad and tonehole with the thinnest cigarette paper cut into a long wedge shape with the longest point terminating in a tip 1-2mm wide. And use light pressure to close any open keys instead of pressing them against the tonehole.
Pads should be installed so they're slightly lighter at the back (nearest the hinge) than the front as this will ensure they close well and won't feel spongy under the fingers - pads that are light at the front will need greater pressure to make them close (therefore feeling spongy as they'll deform slightly when pressed).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: knotty
Date: 2009-10-21 19:11
I'm going to have to get a good flame source for heating cups. Right now I'm using a plumber's copper pipe propane torch in the idle setting (about a 1" flame) I heard somewhere about using a alcohol lamp to heat cups.
Again thanks for the finer tips on installing pads, I had no idea of installing the pad lighter at the back, it makes sense. I do have a few pads that are spongy when pressed, have to adjust some more.
AH.. I knew there was another question, are you supposed to puncture the side of the pad with a pin? I noticed when heating the cup, the pad kind of ballooned up a bit.
Thanks!..knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-10-21 20:35
I usually put a suitably cut postcard between pad and body while heating keycups. Never had a problem, not even on plastic bodies.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-21 21:11
You puncture the pad just above the shoulder (between the felt disc and cardboard backing) to let the air escape when it expands, and if you want, you can puncture it twice (with the holes opposing each other) just to be sure.
I use a fairly large bunsen burner flame, the same as you'd get in a science lab and have had no trouble with that - even when installing pads of 6mm or less. I do use hand held butane torches (creme brulee torches) for working on saxes as they're not so easy to manoeuvre around a bunsen burner as clarinet, oboe or piccolo body joints are.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-10-22 13:21
Similarly, Bunsen burner, and a butane torch for larger sax keys for speed, and for keys still mounted on a sax.
I regard a soldering iron as high risk. Too difficult to get a good surface contact for transfer of heat on a clean, "dry" iron, without using melted solder as a gap filler.
Melted solder will readily adhere to silver plating and alloy with that silver, tarnishing to a dull grey.
I don't think ANY techs would use a soldering iron.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: knotty
Date: 2009-10-22 15:33
Again thanks for the great tips. Yes, Gordon I agree about the soldering iron. Mine was new, never had lead on it but I can see it scratching the cap tops. It worked fine for the small cups but probably wouldn't work too good for large cups. I'll go look at some small butane "pencil" type torches.
This is a new learning process for me. Until a couple weeks ago, never even thought about taking a clarinet apart but I'm the type that has to know how to fix things. I cannot drive a car without knowing how to fix it. I guess it's the fear of getting stuck somewhere, it happened in 1976, got stuck in Death Valley on a winter Sunday totally deserted and before cellphones existed ..LOL
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: knotty
Date: 2009-10-23 14:42
Very interesting Gordon, the resistance heating, thanks for the links. Luckily, I have several soldering guns from low wattage electrical use to heavy duty.
I should think it will heat the cup quickly and no open flame.
Thanks...knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-23 15:26
Gordon,
Surround the address with < and > like this: < http://www.address > (without the spaces between the < and > and the address) to make them clickable. Sometimes it won't work on some addresses, so you'll probably have to surround the address with [ url ] [ /url ] (without spaces).
Click here http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/help.html?f=1 for more info.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-10-23 15:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-10-23 16:26
Chris P
Can I take you back in the discussion to your statement:
Pads should be installed so they're slightly lighter at the back (nearest the hinge) than the front as this will ensure they close well and won't feel spongy under the fingers
I have sweated and sworn in making sure every pad I put in has simultaneous contact on the tone hole. Does your statement carry for all pads (eg bass clari / sax plateau pads, auxillary tone hole pads, ones sprung closed) or certain pads on a clarinet (or sax for that matter). If certain ones, which ones?
Chris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-23 17:48
Ideally, all pads can be seated this way, though it's more important with open pads than closed pads as closed pads will compress under spring pressure to ensure they seal while pads in open keys will recover when the keys are at rest, so they will work best when the front of the pad makes firmer contact with the tonehole than the back of the pad.
And with multiple closing keys controlled by one touchpiece, the pads should get progressively lighter (but still make contact with the toneholes) as they get further down the joint. Likewise the ring keys on clarinets - the LH2 ring key pad should close with slightly more pressure than the RH ring key pad.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-10-24 13:39
Hmm.
When key cups are fairly close to the hinge axis, the hinge side of a pad typically travels 1/2 (or less) the distance that the opposite side of the pad travels.
So when we use a feeler, say 0.02 mm thick, and close a pad very lightly for the testing, that feeler when used on the hinge side, acts as if it were twice as thick as when it is used on the opposite side.
So I reckon what Chris suggests simply compensates for that, so that the pad is more likely to contact the tone hole at the same time right around.
The resulting simultaneous contact right around the tone hole is a good thing for clean response during note changes.
However merely contacting the tone hole does not make a seal with the tone hole. A little more pad crushing needs to occur in order to fatten slight irregularity ridges in the pad surface, to the level of the irregularity hollows.
So we apply a little more pressure to the pad after its contact with the tone hole. Assuming that we achieved simultaneous contact as described, and say the extra pressure compresses the pad on the hinge side by 0.01 mm, then it will compress the opposite side by 0.02 mm. In other words, we have to over-compress the pad on the far side from the hinge, in order to effect a seal on the hinge side. And that is a waste of finger pressure. For efficient sealing, we should aim for equal pressure right around the pad.
As far as efficient sealing goes, we would have been better off to adjust that pad alignment so that the pad contacted the hinge side when there was still a 0.05 mm on the opposite side, so that by the time we pressed hard enough to make a seal, all areas of the pad would be compressed by the same 0.01 mm.
In summary, simultaneous contact and even closing pressure are both ideals but are mutually exclusive.
I acknowledge that this dissertation may seem to be nit picking, but I think that it does highlight that there is more to this topic than just following some rule. And this issue is certainly one that cannot be ignored when dealing with flutes with the currently popular style of very firm pads that accommodate very little. 
BTW, In practice, if I get (short key cup arm) pad closing at the front more firmly than at the back, then give it a firm squeeze shut, to make a slightly deeper seat, then it will more than likely, from then on, close evenly all the way round, because the hinge side of the pad travelled less, and got permanently squashed less than the opposite side.
IN the end, we do what works, and this is one reason why it is a good idea to allow a technician to use the brand/model of pad whose behaviour he is intimately familiar with.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BartHx
Date: 2009-10-24 18:49
For heating pad cups, I use an adjustable heat gun. The way mine is built, it will stand pointing straight up. I use it the same way one would use a bunsen burner, except that I can set the heat level to give a little greater margin of error to avoid cooking the pad or the wood. I am trained as a scientist and use bunsen burners all the time. but, for clarinet work, I prefer the heat gun.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-10-24 22:36
I am with Chris P in that I was taught by a very experienced maker/repairer to set up the front of the pad very very slightly heavier than the back (its really very microscopic the difference). Years of repairing since have convinced me that this works best and taking Gordon's points after a little use by the customer the extra slight compression of the front of the felt will have given a very small "set" that then actually achieves a more perfect permanent eveness of touch all around the pad circumference.
A further refinement is to take account of the relative pivot point of each key when making this adjustment as keys with a long length e.g. side trill keys have a more nearly parallel action (and so need almost no compensation) as compared to closely hinged keys such as the ring keys.
With flutes this type of set-up is essential for long lasting seatings.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2009-10-25 12:04
"IN the end, we do what works" , per Gordon, is astute advice and that's why I found Knotty's intuitive use of a small soldering gun interesting. I have done the same with acceptable results and using the common sense of avoiding the use of a tip that already had solder on it. Agreed, however, that a soldering gun per se is not the cure-all procedure....especially on the larger pad cups. I keep looking for the "ideal" heat source and have yet to find it and I guess the equipment suppliers are doing the same. Puncturing bladder pads is a regular procedure that isn't stressed often enough but it probably won't help on the foam pads(?). I found Ben's suggestion very innovative too.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-10-26 14:01
" I keep looking for the "ideal" heat source and have yet to find it and I guess the equipment suppliers are doing the same."
I have had absolutely no problem with using a small Bunsen burner for clarinet keys. It is the way it is used that is important, with the flame making a "glancing blow" on the surface of the key cup, so that flame does not envelope the key cup and burn other materials.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony F
Date: 2009-10-26 14:03
I find that best gauge for checking even pad seating is a sliver of mylar film, as is used for chocolate wrappers, gift wrapping, etc. It's thinner than a cigarette paper and far more robust. Check for even drag at several points around the pad. I use a Bic lighter with the side of the flame brushing the top of the pad cup. It's easy to control and gives just the right amount of heat.
Tony F.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-26 14:09
I use silver Rizla (cigarette) papers as they're half the thickness of the blue ones.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-10-26 14:34
>> a sliver of mylar film, as is used for chocolate wrappers,
>> gift wrapping, etc. It's thinner than a cigarette paper
What is the thickness of the mylar film you use?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BartHx
Date: 2009-10-31 03:31
I understand the concept that the outer edge of a pad should be slightly tighter than the inner edge since the outer edge has a greater distance to travel in the closing process. However, as a former Physics teacher, I have to ask if this difference is not offset by the fact that the inner edge of the pad exerts a greater pressure on the tone hole when closed due to the fact that, at the inner edge, the effective lever arm is shorter than at the outer edge? It seems like the best compromise between distance traveled and force applied would be equal contact all the way around.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-10-31 10:05
That is pretty much a summary of my length post above, Bart.
But it really does depend on a range of things, including the firmness of the pad, what "seating" procedures such as clamping with/without heat may be used following adjustment, How long the key cup arm is, etc, etc.
Getting accurate adjustment, probably to the nearest less than 0.005 mm (0.0002") for a largish, exceptionally hard pad, can be quite a challenge. SOME modern bladder pads are as hard as, or harder than cork. With hard pads and short key cup arms, the feeler system of adjustment can let a technician down.
This highlights the importance of a technician working with pads with which he is familiar. We get to know the foibles of particular pads.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-10-31 10:08
"I use silver Rizla (cigarette) papers as they're half the thickness of the blue ones."
How thick are they, Chris?
And why do you choose to use a material that fails if it encounters a slightly damp area of a pad?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-10-31 10:57
I also use rolling papers. It's one of those things that I can't exactly say why, I just like it. I don't mind the few extra seconds it takes to make another if one tears, etc. The current ones (two I think) are now a few weeks since I made them.
Most companies have a Slim type, and usually it is approx 0.02mm. I compared many and there are very small differences which I couldn't measure. I can see it is slightly different, but can't say how much. Maybe a difference of about 0.001-0.002 (just guesstimating). I decided I prefer OCB papers since it feels they are possibly slightly thinner. I've found that the type Wink Blue is supposed to be even slightly thinner, but it is hard to find these.
Re the chocolate mylar wrap that someone mentioned, I have tried that and it is at least x1.5 thickness of thin rolling papers and usually more.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-31 11:53
Gordon, silver Rizla papers are around 0.0015 - 0.002mm thick according to my micrometer.
If they happen to get wet (which has very rarely happened), then I'd discard it, dry the pad and tonehole and use a new one.
Just did a bit of research and it's RizLa+ which is abbreviated from Riz Lacroix - though found no info on paper thicknesses.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-10-31 14:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-10-31 17:33
Chris, I think you accidenly added a zero or something went wrong with the measuring (maybe the micrometer crushed the paper?). According to Rizla's website their silver papers are 20 microns thick which is 0.02mm, and that's what my measuring shows too.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-31 17:42
Yeah - that should have been 20 microns, not 2 microns - I was never any good at maths and decimals and stuff.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-11-02 10:06
So why do you use really weak paper in preference to far more durable mylar of the same thickness, like I think most technicans do?
eg typical video tape at about 0.015mm, or thinner if you clean the magnetic coating off. Or the Cellophane(?) outside a cigarette box, or possibly a muesli bar or chocolate wrapping, or, or, or....
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-11-03 13:45
Thanks for the screw detail, Chris. I had not noticed your post in the other thread.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
