 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: chorusgirl
Date: 2009-10-24 16:13
My son's teacher wants him to try a Vandoren M13 and an M15. I went to WWBW to place an order, and have a few questions:
1. For the M13, there is the regular mp or a profile. They are both the same price ($76.79)
2. For the M15, there are several more options:
Profile 88 - M15 (A442) ($71.95)
13 Series - M15 (A440) ($76.79)
Traditional - M15 (A442) ($71.95)
13 Series - M15 (A440) Closeout ($67.58)
13 Series - M15 (A440) Blemished Item ($65.27)
Traditional - M15 (A442) Blemished Item ($61.16)
How on earth do I know which to order? I want to order one of each (M13 and M15) so he can try them for a bit to see which is better. I can't afford to order all of them on a trial!
Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated. If it makes any difference, he is currently using a Mitchell Lurie reed, size 2 1/2 (I know we've discussed reeds here before, but this is what his teacher wants him to use right now.)
Thanks for any advice!
~Marge
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-24 17:58
Some explanation is in order. The Profile 88 refers to a "beak" that is thinner. That is, you stick a certain amount of a mouthpiece into your face to the right spot where the reed and mouthpiece actually meet. So, the Profile 88 is thinner there (you have a slightly less open mouth for the same spot).
The 13 Series (or A=440) refers to a slightly lower pitch. According to Vandoren it is made FOR us in the US who use a standard A=440 vibrations per second tunning standard. I happen to agree with Arnoldstang that the higher pitch mouthpiece is preferable because there you can always slightly pull out the barrel to adjust pitch down if you are "high," but you can't do much of anything if your pitch is already too low and all the parts are firmly together.
The M13 is ONLY available in the A= 440 pitch standard so try one of those and one of the "standard" (non 13 Series M15s).
Personally the M15 should be a good match for many students. The M13 is just a bit more open, so the reeds to match would be a bit softer.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-24 18:24
Since the teacher recommended these two mouthpieces specifically, might it not be a good idea to ask the teacher which variants of the design he/she would prefer for you to order?
Just a suggestion. 
Jeff
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Author: salzo
Date: 2009-10-24 21:11
"Personally the M15 should be a good match for many students. The M13 is just a bit more open, so the reeds to match would be a bit softer."
Best to ask your teacher, but i would assume that because he suggested BOTH the M13 and M15, you would probably want the M15 in profile 88, at A440.
My experience with the M13 is that flatness is rarely an issue, unless you are playing with others who are incredibly sharp, in which case the 442 might be a little better. That being said, I play in a "440-441" area, rarely does it stay there, and rarely do I have issues of being flat.
I prefer the M13, but many prefer the M15-there isnt that much difference, so whatever works best. I have students who play both the M13 and M15.
But I do believe that the M13 is closer than the M15.
Post Edited (2009-10-24 21:12)
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Author: AJN
Date: 2009-10-24 21:29
"The M13 is just a bit more open, so the reeds to match would be a bit softer"
M15 (103.5) is actually more open than M13 (100.5). And both have what Vandoren simply calls a "Long" facing, so the contrast in resistance should be pretty much entirely determined by the tip opening. If either would accommodate a softer reed than the other, it would therefore be the M15. In any case, it would be surprising if either of these worked with a reed as soft as a Lurie 2.5, but what do I know?
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Author: salzo
Date: 2009-10-24 22:24
AJN wrote:
In
> any case, it would be surprising if either of these worked with
> a reed as soft as a Lurie 2.5, but what do I know?
i could not imagine that working. I use V12 4 and 4 1/2 with the 13, #4s with the 15
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-10-24 22:58
You can easily use a 442 mouthpiece with a group that plays at 440, because all you have to do is pull out your barrel. You generally cannot use a 440 mouthpiece with a group with plays at 442, unless you use a shorter-than-normal barrel (because you can push in only so far).
Also, a 442 mouthpiece will compensate for some of the flatness you can expect from using very soft reeds (Lurie 2.5s are very soft), so a 442 mouthpiece is probably preferable for that reason alone.
My first "good" mouthpiece as a young student was a 442 (it was a Gigliotti P34 or P--I'm not sure which; at the time my teacher simply called it a Gigliotti 442--this was around 1986 or so). She had me try out a bunch of different mouthpieces out of a big bag of them, and this was the one we both liked the best, so she ordered one for me (from some guy she knew who owned a clarinet-specific music store, I think I remember her telling me--I don't think she told me his name, just that he had a clarinet-specialty store--I was only about 10, so I don't remember a lot, other than that and the fact that when it came in, my special, shiny new mouthpiece was in a little white, handwritten box). Anyway, the important thing was to find the one that worked the best *for me*, so she had me try a whole bunch of them (including a number of different Vandorens) to find the right one.
In those days, if I'm not mistaken, ALL Vandoren mouthpieces [which is what most of the other kids in band played on--they played on 5RV Lyres, mostly] were 442 (and with the traditional beak, too).
So, to make a long story short, if you prefer to err on the side of caution, I think you're probably better off buying a mouthpiece that tunes to 442, but you might want to try a few different kinds to find the one that works the best *for your student*.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2009-10-24 23:56
An important question to ask the teacher is WHY s/he wants your son to try another mouthpiece. This could be critical in deciding which ones to try.
As noted by others, the pitch difference between the "traditional" Vandorens (A=442) and the "13-Series" (A=440) can be significant depending on who you play with. However, there are other considerations.
Since their inception I have played "13-Series" Vandoren mouthpieces because, for me, they sound different from the "traditional" ones. I find that the 13-series have a warmer, rounder tone. So I have opted to use shorter barrels if necessary to get to A=442 (which, among the groups I play with is rare).
Unless you son has difficulty playing up to pitch, I would recommend staying with the '13-Series' for the sound and because in my experience most American groups will likely tune to A=440. I would try to order (at least) 2 of each facing as there can be some small variations among each model. Most online stores have a trial period (usually about 1-2 weeks) that should afford some time to make a choice. The unused mouthpieces can be returned for a full refund (perhaps less a $2-3 cleaning charge).
When trying the mouthpieces, I would recommend finding a good, NEW reed for each facing--do not try to play the same reed for all mouthpieces as each facing will "prefer" a slightly different strength/style of reed. Almost certainly, the M13 will feel better with a slightly stiffer reed than the M15.
Finally, I would recommend also considering the M13-Lyre which, along with the M15, is currently a very popular facing with many fine orchestral players. Moreover, it might actually be more similar to the M15 than the M13 would be. I could play #3-4 reeds on the M15 and M13-Lyre, where the M13 would really prefer a #4.
Good luck!
Bob Barnhart
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Author: pewd
Date: 2009-10-25 03:24
Jeff's post is the best - ask the teacher.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-10-25 10:32
I, too, agree with Jeff's post: Ask the teacher.
As to Bob Barnhart's suggestion about the M13 Lyre, I concur as well.
I played the M13 Lyre for a long while and liked it very much.
I play-tested it against the M13 for my teacher. It was a blind test, if you will. I taped over the gold lettering on the mouthpiece and he stood on the opposite side of the studio and then just outside the door, listening as I played each one several times.
For me...and I emphasize FOR ME....the M13 produced a more brittle sound.
The M13 Lyre is an ever-so-slightly more open mouthpiece than the M13 and both my teacher and I thought the tone was a bit fuller
The M15 is a bit warmer still, more covered than the M13 Lyre, but very nice.
However, as many will tell you, your mileage may vary.
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Author: chorusgirl
Date: 2009-10-25 16:50
Thank you for your responses. I did ask my son's teacher and he said to just get one of each - no further guidance. I also asked him about the reeds, as my older son plays on Vandorens, and he said to stick with the Mitchell Luries for now. He is in seveth grade and this is his fourth year of playing.
He was using the mouthpiece that came with his Lyrique. Before that, he was using a Vandoren B45, which his old teacher recommended to him. However, when we got the Lyrique and he tried that mp, it was much easier for him to play and his sound was much better. Now that he is with a new teacher, he doesn't want him using the Lyrique, and doesn't want him using the B45.
I'd like to place the order tonight, so if anyone else has any advice to offer, I'd much appreciate it. Thank you.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-10-25 19:21
The mouthpiece that comes with the lyrique is not a bad mouthpiece. Not at all. I personally use a Ridenour mouthpiece (on a zinner blank) and have yet to come across something that rivals it.
But I think the ones that he sends with lyrique is NOT the zinner blank. I have some of those, but find them much stuffier and not even NEARLY as free-blowing as the zinner-based mouthpieces he has. I intend on buying another one or two when I get back to TX.
Alexi
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Author: weberfan
Date: 2009-10-25 20:17
chorusgirl:
O.K. Justifiably you no longer want to dither with this decision, for which the teacher is not providing much guidance.
My suggestion is to just bite the bullet and pick something, despite all the reasonable suggestions, explanations and reservations posted previously.
Get the M13 Profile and the M15 Profile.
Have your son try them.
If one works for your son and his teacher, fine.
If they both fail the test, then you've lost only the postage and the re-stocking fee. Personally, the Lurie 2 1/2's seem a little light with either of those, but perhaps the teacher will be gauging your son's reed strength once the new mouthpiece is in place.
Good Luck with whatever you choose.
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