 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-10-17 07:11
I recently got two inexpensive older A clarinets; Leblanc and Chapelain (Buffet stencil?). I'm now trying to chose which one to keep. I'm hoping someone here is familiar enough with these models to give me your opinion. You can see photos here: http://s180.photobucket.com/albums/x88/jimiclapton/A%20clarinets/
The last photos show approximately what the logos looks like. Chapelain logo is similar to a Buffet logo in style.
The Chapelain is playable even tho' it needs a few pads and set up. It sounds pretty good and plays well enough in tune. The Leblanc is not in playing condition needing all new pads and adjustment. So this is my dilemma. The LeBlanc seems to be slightly better quality but i can't play test it to see. It also will take more money to get it playable.
The joint between sections is in a different place on each horn. The leblanc has metal inside the joints for strength and also an extra ring for the 3rd finger. Nickle keys on the Leblanc and chrome on the Chapelain. thank you for any opinions or advice.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
Post Edited (2009-10-17 07:18)
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-10-17 07:27
I forgot to mention; the serial number on the Chapelain is xxxx. There does not seem to be a number anywhere on the Leblanc.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
Post Edited (2009-12-04 06:39)
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Author: DixieSax
Date: 2009-10-17 07:46
Both clarinets are clearly older models - certainly if the Chapelain is indeed a Buffet stencil it is pre-R13. One giveaway is that the throat G# and A keys share a common post, a practice that was gotten away from in later clarinets.
The Leblanc is also an older model - as evidenced by the offset side trill keys rather than the in-line bridged design that Leblanc adopted around the time of the LL model. The LH G# key is clearly bent way out of position on the Leblanc.
The difference in the joint is because on the Leblanc the entire G# mechanism is on the lower joint. This is also why the tenon socket is lined with metal, to allow it to be strong enough for the tonehole to be drilled through the tenon socket (and through the tenon of the upper joint). This is an articulated G# mechanism - which means exactly what it does on a sax, the G# is closed by a spring that overpowers another spring that pushes the key open. The articulated G# mechanism helps to overcome the sloppiness that can occur when trilling F# to G# - a non articulated clarinet requires a right/left finger exchange, while with the articulated G# the right pinkie can remain on the key while playing the trill. This particular implementation of the articulated G# is not quite as useful as it could be, as this clarinet does not have an alternate right hand G# fitted (this would be an additional sliver key between the top two rings of the lower joint)
A practical good reason for the articulated G# is that the tone hole is relocated to the top of the clarinet, preventing it from filling with condensation - most clarinetists well know the result of that problem.
The additional ring fitted to the upper joint of the Leblanc is there to allow for a forked fingering for Eb/Bb.
Now, what do you keep?
What are you playing for a Bb. Ideally you will want to keep the A that best compliments the Bb that you use. One that has similar playing characteristics, as you will likely be using the same mouthpiece. If you are playing Buffet, then the Chapelain is probably your choice. If not, and you are willing to spend the money for the full overhaul on the Leblanc (judging from the pictures, it needs it) it will probably be the better instrument - particularly since the additional keywork plays into some of the strengths of a saxophonist.
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Author: William
Date: 2009-10-17 15:50
I would spend the $$'s required to put the Leblanc in playing condition--which should cost far less than a complete overhaul--and then, pick the clarinet that plays best with your Bb (as wisely suggested above). Model, keywork, appearance, brand, serial numbers, etc are of relative unimportance. To paraphrase Duke Ellington, "If it [plays] good, it is good". And to make an intelligent choice, you need to play both instruments side-by-side (in an ensemble if possible, to truely get a feel for how each instrument blends and projects).
I recently got lucky and found a vintage 1968ish R13 Buffet A lying on a high school band room instrument shelf in a Selmer double case that no longer zipped shut with a Selmer Bb barrel and in mechanical distress. With the consent of the band director--who admitted that he had very little use for the instrument and really did not know where it came from--I had it put in "playing condition" and discovered that it was a perfect match for my vintage 1960's R13 Bb--out playing my original R13A and my Leblanc Concerto A, both excellant instruments. I made a finacial offer, purchased the instrument, had in completely overhauled with silver plated keys & posts (looks brand new) and now use it full time. It actually plays better than my talent deserves. My point is, at first glance, it was definately the "ugly duckling" and it took a small investment to discover its true musical potential. I spent the necessary bucks and am happy--just don't tell my wife I bought ANOTHER clarinet, LOL.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-10-17 16:15
As Dixiesax says both clarinets are older models. The S.G.D.G. marking on the Leblanc label ("sans garantie du gouvernement," i.e., "not guaranteed by the government") and the L.P. (low pitch) marking on the Chapelain suggest that both probably come from the first quarter (or maybe third) of the 20th century. To me the Leblanc appears to have unplated solid nickel silver (German silver) keys (an alloy of zinc, copper and nickel). This actually polishes up very nicely. I doubt that the Chapelain has chrome plating. I don't know if anyone has ever used chrome to plate clarinet keys. It probably happened somewhere sometime but the practice is extremely rare. More likely the Chapelain has nickel plated keys.
The Leblanc clearly does not have an adjusting screw on the G# throat key. I can't be sure from the picture you've provided but it looks like there may be an adjusting screw on the Chapelain's G# key. That would be somewhat inconsistent with the L.P. marking and suggest that the instrument is of a bit more recent vintage.
I seriously doubt the Chapelain is a Buffet stencil. The shape of the logo is tenuous evidence, indeed. Many manufacturers (including Selmer at one time) used that shape. The primary reason for doing stencils is excess capacity. There is some evidence that, during the first half of the 20th century, many student model Buffets were actually stencils made by Malerne. It seems unlikely then that Buffet, which doesn't seem to have had trouble selling models under its own name, would resort to manufacturing clarinets to be sold under some unknown marque. I suppose anything is possible but the only evidence I've ever seen that Buffet made stencils was for Linton in the 1960's and early 70's.
There apparently were other manufacturers in Paris in the early part of the 20th century making stencils. If you search the Board for "stencil" without the quotes, you may find a thread that discusses them. In the early part of the 20th century, there were also a number of small manufacturers in Paris, some of whom moonlighted at home while working at one of the main factories. It's possible that the clarinet was made by one of them.
Perhaps Mark will check his Langwill's to see if there was a Chapelain company.
IMO, FWIW, in good playing condition, the Leblanc would probably have greater resale value. It has a better pedigree and the seventh ring and articulated G# key might have some novelty value. The problem is that with clarinets this old, there is always the risk that the bore has warped so it's hard to tell which clarinet will be the better player without putting both into playing condition.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2009-10-17 17:50
I have a number of Buffets in the 1900-1925 age range and your Chapelain does not have the same style of right hand pinky keys as mine. What is the serial number of the Chapelain, I've never seen a Buffet stencil that didn't have a Buffet serial number. Look at the bottom of the lower joint, there will be no number at the bottom of the upper if it is an old Buffet.
My experience with old A clarinets is they play pretty well, there were made for professional musicians and care was taken in the manufacturing process. The Leblanc for sure will be worth more money and is worth an overhaul.
I'd fix them both up and play both for a while, then sell the one you don't like. Make sure to experiment with barrels on these old As. The proper barrel can make a world of difference in how resistive they are.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-10-19 07:27
I love this forum. You have all given me great advice and it is much appreciated! I have read your responses three times to help the info "sink in".
Dixiesax; some valuable info about the keys. Also good stuff about the articulated G#. Does anyone still made a clarinet with that articulation?
William, great story about your Buffet. We should all have your luck.
Jack Kissinger; on second look, you're right about the plating. What I called chrome plating must just be a shiny nickle whereas the other clarinet is dull nickel (from age). By the way, it's the Leblanc which has adjusting screws and not the Chapelain. I did some more research and found that there really was a Chapelain company, so as you say, this is probably not a stencil. Your warning about the possible warpage of the bore is well advised too, since the original barrel is has a quite a crack in it which runs the entire length and right through to the bore.
bill28099; I will take your advice and get the Leblanc into playing condition as long as it is not too expensive. It doesn't make sense to put too much money into it, since no matter what, it still be an older A clarinet which will probably (?) never be the equal of a modern one.
Regardless, it is fun to have a new instrument which sounds different and inspires practice. My friend said he got hired to play an ad-lib clarinet solo on a country music recording. Because most country music is in "guitar friendly" sharp keys like E,A and D, his clarinet in A was an advantage.
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
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Author: DixieSax
Date: 2009-10-19 13:58
Soybean
Most major manufacturers have made clarinets with the articulated G#, and a few still do.
I have a set of Buffet BC20s in Bb and A that I play as my primary clarinets. Both have the articulated G# (which I prefer), and the Bb is a complete full Boehm, while the A has all the extra keywork except for a low Eb key (which is an extreme rarity on an A clarinet - the reason some manufacturers added a low Eb key was to allow a Bb clarinet to reach the lowest note playable by an A, permitting a clarinetist to transpose when no A clarinet was available)
I also have a Leblanc LL series partial full Boehm (has the extra ring and the articulated G# like yours, but with the newer inline trill keys). I really like it, and use it for big band and dixieland gigs - it's got a great big fat sound that works very well for jazz.
My other clarinet - a standard R-13 - pretty much sits in its case, although I do play it from time to time.
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Author: bill28099
Date: 2009-10-19 17:13
Don't discount the Leblanc A before you get it fixed up. My main A clarinet is a Leblanc Symphonie II from the middle 1950s and it's a perfectly acceptable horn for use in our semipro local orchestra. It's a lot better and freer blowing then a number of newer Buffet As I've tried, you just have to get used to to playing Bb with the A and trill key when ff is required.
Never knock a horn because of its age, one of the nicest blowing Bb clarinets I've ever played was a ~1910 Buffet that had been tinkered with a bit.
A great teacher gives you answers to questions
you don't even know you should ask.
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Author: soybean
Date: 2009-10-20 18:55
I'm not discounting the Leblanc either Bill, but that one will take a while to get playable… perhaps a month or so. I'll write again about the sound and feel of these clarinets after I get a chance to really play them. This has been very interesting!
~Dan
(Leblanc Bliss, Buffet R13 key of A, Yamaha 250 Bb)
Post Edited (2009-12-04 06:40)
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