 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-12 14:57
I mentioned this in a thread not so long ago, and there's already a discussion underway on SOTW about these unfortunate articles:
http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1260010#post1260010 (still can't make this link clickable!)
Just hope any teachers on here don't have any of their pupils turn up with these things.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-11-02 10:00)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-10-12 15:11
For the first thing I thought that Yamaha student models did only come with one barrel not two like these.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-12 15:14
And Yamaha never put a pair of white cotton gloves in with anything.
"Descriptions: This is an exceptional instrument, well made, high quality German type Bb clarinet with nickel plated 17 keys, ebonite black body." I beg to differ.
"Mouth piece with reed." Doorstep with floorboard.
"Ready to play right away. This clarinet will produce a sweet expressive tone." But not for long.
"Store MSRP $259.99. Best value!" If you're talking daylight robbery, maybe.
"Case: Plush lined hard shell case provide durable protection." The only thing that is durable while the clarinet resides in landfill after it falls apart.
"Accessories: mouth piece cover, cork grease, soft cleaning cloth and a pair of white glove." Just what I always wanted, now my life is complete.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-10-12 15:26)
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-10-12 16:18
It makes me suspect of all horns on ebay in seemingly new like condition at bargain prices. I wonder when other brands like Buffet start showing up?
How do they get away with this?
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-12 16:37
As there are already several similarities to this clarinet and a Buffet B12, it's only a matter of time.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-10-15 02:03
I've also noticed a number of these crooks who have a subject line like "
Model Merano Bb Clarinet +Case & YAMAHA Care Kit, SAVE!" , or "NEW Rossetti Bb CLARINET+case+WARRANTY+YAMAHA CARE KIT", putting the word Yamaha in all caps while downplaying the brand-X name of the instrument.
I see a lot of deceptive stuff in listings there, and it doesn't do any good to complain about them. I'm sure you've seen them, too. There's the "rare one-piece clarinet case" which is rare only in the sense that few people use them despite their being readily available new. And then we see the "band/teacher/director approved" clarinets from China and India, to which a director would only offer his approval if they were being used by students in a competing band at regionals... Another common cheat is making the profit in the shipping costs. For instance a supposed "musical instrument" described as "Exquisite Beautiful Refine Clarinet Play Well+A Case" currently has two hours left with no bids and a start price of $14.95, followed by a shipping cost listing of $195.00. I guess they figure that folks will be so thrilled at the prospect of paying only twice what the instrument is worth that they won't notice what they're being dunned for shipping. And, of course, the warranty with those horns requires that they be sent back to China; buyer paying shipping both ways when the inevitable happens and something breaks.
Post Edited (2009-10-20 02:36)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-10-15 04:02
>> I wonder when other brands like Buffet start showing up? <<
There are fake Buffet clarinets already.
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Author: BrianChau
Date: 2009-10-15 06:04
is it just me, or does it say "ESTABUSHED IN 1897"?
yamaha is "ESTABLISHED IN 1887"
Brian
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-15 09:41
The logo is so badly copied it's hard to tell.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-10-15 14:59
Any of you who are Yamaha fans and are distressed about the fakes on eBay, now know something of how I feel (as a long-time Kohlert fan) about the current Vietnamese-made "Kohlerts" which have been flooding the market for the last ten years or so. In fairness, though, it must be said that these Asian "Kohlerts" are reasonably competent instruments, not junk. But still, they stole a revered name and have been producing instruments that have absolutely nothing in common with the originals.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-10-15 15:07
David Spiegelthal wrote:
> But still, they stole a revered name
That's a strong statement that might not legally be true. I don't know if it has been stolen or used legally (with or without permission).
My friend Greg Fisher legally gained control of the old GM trademark & copyrighted logo "Bodies by Fisher" - I'd hate to see someone accuse him of "stealing" it.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-10-15 15:31
Another trick we've mentioned here before: brands such as "Selner" and "Baffet." The schlock-meisters hope we'll take in the whole logo at a too-trusting glance, instead of reading each letter of each word carefully.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-10-15 15:55
1.Can anyone tell me when Buffet started to use the dreadful case(larger than the slim one previously used) for the B-12 with the black lockers and if they ever came with only one lock in the middel under the case's handle?
2.In the last 15 years I've only seen two variation of cases for the B12 could that be right?
The newer one http://www.netmusicalinstruments.co.uk/acatalog/b12case.jpg
and the older one http://www.repairworkshop.co.uk/images/B12A.jpg
3.Could a B12 clarinet made between 1983-1987 come in case like the current one but with one lock in the middle and the body buffed to give the appearance of a wood ?
My Buffet B12 bought in 1994 did come in the slimmer case and is not buffed to give the appearance of a wood(it's like the clarinet on the pic of the older case)
I also saw a B12 stated to be few years old in a original case which is totally different from the two versions I mentioned and is much deeper. Could that be a original case ?
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-10-15 16:32
The cheap price for the instrument with high shipping costs is also a dodge to get around paying eBay their auction fees. If you report those to eBay, they'll usually shut them down -- they do take note of scams that rip THEM off.
I remember some Chinese saxophones awhile back that were selling for (I think) around $20 with shipping costs over $1000. I reported them to eBay. Within a few hours all the instruments being offered by that particular seller for sale in the US were pulled. Interestingly, however, several whose price was stated in pounds sterling and which were listed for sale to UK bidders remained up.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-15 16:35
The B12 (and the Regent II immediately before) originally came with the older case with blue lining http://www.repairworkshop.co.uk/images/B12A.jpg and this was changed to the all plastic case with the single clasp (that failed) sometime in the early to mid '90s.
The fabric lining on this case was burgundy, then in the mid '90s they changed the fabric colour to a greeny-grey colour and around this time they began doing the brushed finish as standard.
Then the double latch case with flat top came in sometime around '98-99.
Another case was the older plastic Winter case that the Evette was supplied in - it had a flat top and bottom but with angular sides.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-10-15 16:38)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-10-15 16:41
Mark Charette wrote (regarding my post about the use of the "Kohlert" name by a current Vietnamese manufacturer:
>That's a strong statement that might not legally be true. I don't know if it has been stolen or used legally (with or without permission).
You're correct, Mark, I should not have assumed that they are necessarily using the name illegally. But given the following statement from the article "Whatever Happened to the Kohlerts" by Paul and Janet Lein, I doubt that the Vietnamese firm bought rights to the name; I suspect that Albert Moosman has those rights (again I'm just speculating):
"In 1982 Albert Moosmann, once an apprentice in the firm, his son Bernd (and another partner no longer associated with the firm) purchased the remains of Kohlert in Winnenden. Today the name "Bernd Moosmann" appears on the bassoons, the firm having specialized on one instrument."
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-15 16:43
Jack,
I reported this seller and also took the liberty to ask them a question while I was at it - "Do you sell genuine Yamaha instruments as well as these fakes?"
I'm not expecting a reply, but if I do get one (and I'm not holding my breath here), I'll definitely share it with everyone!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Drake
Date: 2009-10-15 22:15
Those don't look like any Yamaha's I've ever seen. The logo script is WAY too thick and overdone and the year looks like its wrong. I see "Established 1897", Yamaha instruments always say "Established 1887". Furthermore, since when do Yamaha student instruments come with two barrels? Are these made of wood or plastic? the pictures show wood grain, especially noticeable on the bell. I have a wooden clarinet, and the grain isn't nearly that obvious.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-10-15 22:21
That's not wood grain - it's the condensation marks left on the bell from where the plastic it was wrapped up in was in contact with the surface.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-10-15 22:31
The music school that I was a student at have something around 7 B12 clarinets in those dreadful all plastic two latches and not one of those cases completely close properly. The earlier one as came with my B12 in 1994 has outperformed any current case that I've seen and it even has more space. I can have a lyre(actually I keep two in case of an emergency) swab and the Vandoren 4 reed holder with no problem were it's not possible with the current cases.
So I say like people have been crying out about Vandoren. Bring back the old case(aka packet)!!!!!!!!!
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-10-15 22:49
Seems Yamaha and eBay should be doing all they can to get these fakes taken care of and prosecuted.
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: LKKlarinet
Date: 2009-10-16 13:39
Just report this item to ebay.co.uk. There is no place in the world for those fake items. We should make effort in reporting all of them.
LKKlarinet
Borbeck V12 Bob Harrison S-1Buffet
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-10-16 16:14
Has anyone got in the situation of seeing a real original instrument on that auction site that shall not be mention but got a fake one ?
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Author: sue
Date: 2009-10-26 23:31
The Buffet B12 fakes available on ebay Australia have been working on their logo and getting closer to looking like the real thing over the past year. I emailed Australia's authorised Buffet dealer with details of listings and I haven't seen them on ebay Australia since, though they are still on other ebay sites. Now to find a contact for Yamaha...
Sue
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-10-26 23:49
Yep, I've seen several fakes today. It's a real shame, I've grown very suspect of some listings with high shipping and low bid prices or, high bid and free shipping.
I could be wrong but think I saw a seller in the US selling what appears to be a fake Yamaha, perhaps he bought one of those overseas fakes and now trying to sell it off?
I figure Yamaha and Buffet are the ones to do something about it since they are the ones losing the money.
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: sue
Date: 2009-10-27 21:06
Continue to email the company's authorised dealers in your country. Ebay will only respond to complaints about infringement from the owners of the real thing.
My concern is that it will become more difficult to tell fake from genuine in the second hand sales as people who have bought these insuspectingly then try to offload their purchase onto others.
Sue
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Author: superson
Date: 2009-10-27 22:45
shameful to say i almost brought one the other week, very lucky that I thought something just wasn't right. i thought it odd it was listed on ebay as 'flute, oboe, clarinet'. phew.
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2009-10-27 23:03
Looking for a plastic Bundy to play with on repairs, I bought one, but it went right back to the seller. They had only one photo, it was in a Bundy case, and it had very Bundy like keywork. However, when I got it, I found that the only place it had ever had a logo was on the bell. The logo on the bell had been very carefully and completely obliterated. There are many sellers on that auction site who base a manufacturer and model identification based upon the case the instrument is in.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-10-27 23:09
BartHx wrote:
> Looking for a plastic Bundy to play with on repairs, I bought
> one, but it went right back to the seller. They had only one
> photo, it was in a Bundy case, and it had very Bundy like
> keywork. However, when I got it, I found that the only place it
> had ever had a logo was on the bell. The logo on the bell had
> been very carefully and completely obliterated. There are many
> sellers on that auction site who base a manufacturer and model
> identification based upon the case the instrument is in.
Well - who would ever want to counterfeit a Bundy? ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
Anyhow - many Bundies had decal-type (vs etched or stamped) logos that got wiped and washed away over time, so it's not uncommon to have a completely "unbranded" Bundy. The keywork, however, is unique enough to determine whether or not it's a genuine one.
--
Ben
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Author: susieray
Date: 2009-10-28 00:31
What Ben said.
They look unbranded, but it's just that the decals have fallen off.
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-11-02 01:34
Just spotted my first fake Buffet on eBay. Claims to be a new B-12 with a BIN price of $59... Logo isn't quite right-looking, and the SN is just painted on it. Seller is in China, of course. I reported it.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-11-02 10:06
HAHAHA! Just found them - and one example even says 'Made in France' on it! Not only does it have that printed beneath the logo, but above the thumbrest (which is a fixed one and has three screws)!
Can someone remind me which part of France the Schreiber factory is in?
I've kicked things off about this over on SOTW (though still can't get the link to go all clicky): http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=1275602#post1275602
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-11-02 10:28)
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-11-02 12:39
The flea markets have become even more buyer-beware than formerly because of these fakes. Some of the instruments are completely new, with sealed plastic bags around the sections. Probably some of them come from dealers who got booted off online auctions and wholesaled the goods to flea market suppliers, but flea market people also buy from the same sources that supply the auction tricksters. One dealer told me she got her hunk-o-junk clarinet (I forget now whether this was a "Selner" or a "Baffet" or what, but it was one of those with a sneakily misleading brand name) from a catalogue supplier where she also buys her new jewelry and cheap, modern replicas of Asian antique art. I had the impression she truly didn't realize this clarinet was a knock-off until I explained about the brand name.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-11-02 12:55
I noticed one of the fake dealers never mentions the name Yamaha in the title or description except on the clarinet itself. Instead, the title reads "Yama" I guess so it doesn't come up in searching for "Yamaha". Is the remedy for this going to be another "too little, too late" like so many other things?
You can't even buy shoes today without the chance of it being a fake.
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-11-02 13:19
I've never seen the case that this yama comes in and I thought also that NO Yamaha clarinet at all comes with two barrels. The logo is also very large and looks a lot fake. So there are just about everything in my opinion that screams fake to me here.
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-11-02 13:20
knotty wrote:
> I noticed one of the fake dealers never mentions the name
> Yamaha in the title or description except on the clarinet
> itself. Instead, the title reads "Yama" I guess so it doesn't
> come up in searching for "Yamaha".
The "Buffet" was the same way, with "Buff" as the title. It'll still show up for those of us who search for keywords in the description, though, and a click for this dealer's other items listed brings up some fake flutes as well.
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Author: sue
Date: 2009-11-05 19:40
The ones I'm looking at in Australia are listed as Yamaha - even have made in Japan printed on them!
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Author: BrianChau
Date: 2009-11-05 20:02
It's interesting to note that both the "Buff" CSO and the "Yama" CSO are in the exact same case, packaging, and both serial numbers are in the exact same font. They also have the exact same thumb rest and an identical, incorrect description (i believe those are boehm clarinets, not oehler, but it mentions that they are German type)
PS somebody want to report the owner? I dont have an account on The Auction Site
Brian Chau
University of British Columbia Concert Winds
Post Edited (2009-11-05 20:04)
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-11-06 14:40
BrianChau wrote:
>
> PS somebody want to report the owner? I dont have an account on
> The Auction Site
>
I did that back when I first spotted the fakes. If it's still there, it means that eBay hasn't done anything about it. (no big surprise...) What's really needed is for the manufacturers to get on eBay about it. A letter from corporate legal will be far more likely to get their attention than our protests.
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-11-28 14:41
Just finished taking another look at that auction site... It's getting flooded with fake Yamaha, Buffet, Selmer, and other brands of instruments. The sellers aren't very good at hiding their fraud, though. A number of the listings now include the serial number of the instrument, and it's always the same serial number... "1083155" I didn't know that Buffet used the same serial number for all their B-12's... I sent ebay the following note:
"Listing is one of several counterfeit Buffet clarinets from this seller; all with the same supposed serial number. I've observed quite a few counterfeit clarinets recently, using abbreviations to avoid detection. For instance, instead of Buffet B-12, they'll say Buff B-12. Another example is a fake Yamaha clarinet, listing 280430529538. The logo isn't quite right, the thumb rest is a Buffet design, and despite coming from China, it's printed on the instrument as "made in Japan". All of these clarinets also try to evade eBay fees by using excessive shipping, usually in the $150 to $180 range despite the fact that a clarinet can be shipped from China to the US for about $25. I see the same thing with other musical instruments, including flutes, saxophones and others. We've had a lengthy discussion about this on our professional clarinet players forum, and most of the members are now advising their students to avoid eBay at all costs because of the fact that you allow blatant counterfeits to be sold again and again. Counterfeit musical instruments are a growing problem, and they're usually of such poor quality that they both harm the genuine manufacturer's reputation and discourage new students from continuing their studies. I have reported individual items, but it doesn't seem to do anything to stop the flood of fakes. If eBay is serious about stopping these counterfeiters, I would suggest that you consider hiring a professional musician or instrument repair technician to monitor the musical instrument listings for fraud, as a non-musician is unlikely to recognize the difference. I would also suggest that, since China is now the world leader in counterfeit goods, you might give buyers the option of blocking listings from China. There may be some real merchandise coming out of China, but it's overwhelmed by the fakes and frauds."
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Author: sue
Date: 2009-11-28 18:23
Good note to ebay Irooff. I doubt they will do anything about it though.
Sue
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-11-28 18:40
I just looked over that auction site yesterday and had noticed a great increase in bogus instruments. Noticed some write the title so it's all run together without spaces so the name Yamaha does not come up in searching titles. These crooks are always looking for ways to fool buyers.
A while ago I wrote that auction site with a suggestion about improving their website and got back the reply "Thank you but we don't take suggestions" My thought was did these guys get too big and mighty now?
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-11-28 22:42
Good note to ebay Irooff. I doubt they will do anything about it though.
Sue
_________________
that's why I included the comment that they were using excessive shipping costs to avoid paying eBay fees. That part gets their attention because it hits them in the pocket book, and they'll always act on things when their financial interests are at stake.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-11-29 12:36
>>A while ago I wrote that auction site with a suggestion about improving their website and got back the reply "Thank you but we don't take suggestions" My thought was did these guys get too big and mighty now?
>>
Holy squeak-a-moly! They don't take suggestions? They may be big and mighty now, but all brawn and no brains don't add up to a promising future in most walks of life. (I'm thinking of athletes all beefed up on steroids, who pay the price later.) Thanks for making the suggestion, anyway, because maybe somebody out there does read and consider customers' opinions no matter what the dolt who hit the "Reply" button thinks.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: lrooff
Date: 2009-12-01 06:09
I just got a response from Yamaha, to whom I had reported the fakes...
"Hi Eliyahu – thanks for the note. We’re certainly aware of it and our legal department has taken action. It’s really disappointing to hear from parents or teachers that have these instruments and are now having problems. I have one of the flutes in my office and it’s extremely poor quality.
At this moment our legal department is working with eBay, but that’s about all I know.
Thanks again for your message."
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-12-01 12:43
So what is a Buffet B10?
Is it a Chinese imitation, or a Chinese imitation on which Buffet has stamped its name, and for which Buffet has overcharged?
The latter!
http://www.buffet-crampon.com/en/instruments.php?mode=productDetails&pid=100
I'm pretty disappointed with the one I have in for servicing. IMO a Yamaha is a much better buy.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-12-01 14:25
I hope they do something about it and clean up the auction site of fakes, it's getting a bit tiring having to visually sort out the junk from real posts.
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-12-03 03:57
Chris wrote "They [B10] were installed with Valentino pads that became very sticky when they were left wet.
Interesting. From the link provided... "The B10 model is mounted with double fish skin pads which ensure excellent sealing."
Whatever, perhaps they changed since writing the web site.
If they need a new thumb rest, all new pads, and all new key corks within a short time, and are likely to have problems with broken tenon socket rings, or even the sockets themselves, then one should add in one's mind, $200 - $400 extra when one buys such a dog.
I also found the tone throughout the scale very highly variable.
No better really, than cheap Ebay Chinese with an overlay of profiteering.
"Buffet" indeed!
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Author: Chris J
Date: 2009-12-03 04:51
"which ensure excellent sealing."
Well that bit seems true - the problem seems to be in the unsealing afterwards......
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Author: clonestar
Date: 2013-12-10 22:22
To this day, you can go to a number of Chinese instrument manufacturers and, if you're willing to purchase a certain volume of their instruments, you can have any brand name or logo that you like on the instruments. This problem isn't going to get better any time in the near future.
Don
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