 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: spfrosty
Date: 2009-09-29 02:01
Have a question regarding Buffet serial #'s and trying to find out what model it is - 283051, also made in West Germany. When searching the number on BC, it comes back with this:
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : BC 1131
Serial number : 283051
Year of manufacturing : 13/05/1986
But I know there have been discrepancies with serial #'s. Any help on determining the model?
Wanted to add, in case it helps, the case lining is blue.
Post Edited (2009-09-29 03:16)
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Author: spfrosty
Date: 2009-09-29 03:29
Another buffet I am looking at:
Serial 59230
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : N� 1 sib 440 G.L.
Serial number : 59230
Year of manufacturing : 01/10/1959
Is this in fact an R13?
IF both of these ARE 13's which would be the better instrument according to era?
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide me!
I have a picture of this one but I cannot attach it for some reason.
Post Edited (2009-09-29 03:44)
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-09-29 11:22
I have an R-13 that was manufactured in 1983. I know, because I got it new at that time. It's serial number is 6 digits and starts with a 2, so the number on the 1986 model is probably right. As for the other one, I don't know.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-09-29 11:28
Bluesparkle wrote:
> I have an R-13 that was manufactured in 1983.
That's nice ... but considering that the poster mentioned the 1st clarinet was made in West Germany, irrelevant. R13s aren't made in West Germany.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-29 13:14
The West German Buffets were Evette models, which are nice, intermediate instruments. Usually, these also have a letter in the SN, though.
The S/N for the first one you listed would make it an R13, IF (and it's a BIG "if") it were not made in Germany. All R13 clarinets are made in France, and always have been. 1131 is Bufffet's current designation for a standard R13 model. The second one appears to be an R13.
Interestingly, I punched in the S/N of my first R13, which now is in the hands of my daughter at music school. here were the results:
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : BC1102-2
Serial number : 1222xx
Year of manufacturing : 05/07/1999
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : N� 1 Sib Am�rique
Serial number : 1222xx
Year of manufacturing : 14/06/1971
The second one is the actual instument in question. So, there are cases where Buffet has used the same S/N, but with different models. Back in the day, the "No1 Sib Amerique" designation meant it was an R13 in Bb and pitched to A=440.
Jeff
EDIT for correction of factual error
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-09-30 00:20)
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Author: spfrosty
Date: 2009-09-29 14:17
Attachment: Buffet.JPG (1309k)
Thanks Jeff.
So really, we still dont know if either of these are in fact an R13? Its odd that the first one would be IF it were not made in W. Germany.
Here is a picture of the second one.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-29 14:23
It's possible that the second one (in the photo) is an R13. The keywork looks right, even though it's badly tarnished. One thing I would caution about is the two metal bands on the upper joint, which usually means the clarinet has cracked at least once.
Personally, I wouldn't offer a whole lot for that clarinet, unless you know it is in top shape and plays flawlessly. I really don't like banded clarinets, though i suppose others will disagree with me.
Is there a way you could rotate the upper joint so we are looking directly down at the rings and keywork of the joint and snap another photo? That would make positive ID a little more certain.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-09-29 14:24)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-09-29 14:27
spfrosty wrote:
> Thanks Jeff.
>
> So really, we still dont know if either of these are in fact an
> R13?
No, we know for a fact the 1st one (made in W. Germany) IS NOT an R13.
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Author: spfrosty
Date: 2009-09-29 14:36
Mark Charette wrote:
> spfrosty wrote:
>
> > Thanks Jeff.
> >
> > So really, we still dont know if either of these are in fact
> an
> > R13?
>
> No, we know for a fact the 1st one (made in W. Germany) IS NOT
> an R13.
Ahh, ok. So an E11 maybe?
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Author: spfrosty
Date: 2009-09-29 14:45
JJAlbrecht wrote:
>It's possible that the second one (in the photo) is an R13. The keywork looks right, even >though it's badly tarnished. One thing I would caution about is the two metal bands on the >upper joint, which usually means the clarinet has cracked at least once.
>
>Personally, I wouldn't offer a whole lot for that clarinet, unless you know it is in top shape >and plays flawlessly. I really don't like banded clarinets, though i suppose others will >disagree with me.
>
>Is there a way you could rotate the upper joint so we are looking directly down at the rings >and keywork of the joint and snap another photo? That would make positive ID a little more >certain.
>Jeff
Now that you say that, it does look like a possible crack under that right band.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-29 15:05
I magnified the image, and there is definitely a good-sized crack on that upper joint. It runs up to the top of the joint's exterior, and I'm not sure from the photo if it extends to the tenon. There is a small flaw on the end of the tenon that looks suspiciously like it could have extended from that crack. It's not possible ot see inder the cork, of course.
Personally, I wouldn't consider that one. Have you checked out comparable instruments on this BB's classified listings? There are several R13 Bb instruments listed.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-09-30 00:13)
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-29 15:11
A band is used only where the instrument cracks so badly, and is so unstable, that pins don't hold. Two bands means it's even worse.
The bands hold the wood together forever, at the cost of constricting the bore and, usually, making the instrument too non-resonant for orchestral work. But Ralph McLane's A clarinet had to be banded, and, at least with Moennig's skill, it remained a great instrument.
I have a 1939 Buffet Bb with two bands that plays very nicely. It's not an orchestral instrument, but it's great for practice. At least I know it won't crack.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-09-29 15:39
The first one is an E11. It's not in Buffet's serial number list because that list only includes models made in the Paris factory. Based on the serial number and the fact that some years ago, I traced my 3xxxxx E11 to the mid-1980's using Buffet's old serial number look-up, I would estimate that yours was made in the early 1980's. If you look verrrry closely under the Buffet logo on the upper joint, you may be able to make out the faint impression of E11 (or does the word "Evette" appear in the instrument's logo?).
The second clarinet is an early R13.
The West German Buffets were not Evette & Schaeffer models. Buffet made its E&S clarinets in Paris in the same factory where they made (make) their professional clarinets (at least the K-series, there is some evidence that Malerne made the others). E&S serial numbers, at least those in the K series, are included in the current Buffet list along with their successor, the E-13 (BC1102-2). The German-made clarinets were Evettes (which are not the same as Evette & Schaeffer). The wood Evette was predecessor to the E11.
In my experience, the current Buffet serial number list is quite accurate as far as it goes. It appears to be a database created from existing/surviving factory records at the Paris factory. It is, however, incomplete. Either Buffet has chosen not to incorporate the older records from Paris or perhaps lost them during WWII and/or during the financial turmoil it went through after the war. Also, I don't know whether/how often it is updated for new production.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: spfrosty
Date: 2009-09-29 16:05
Attachment: E11.jpg (166k)
Ok, so no go on the 2nd instrument then.
How about the E11? Are they worth the money or just save more for an R13? I have attached the logo for the "E11" if it helps to confirm that it is in fact that. I just received an email and she says he noticed a B1?, said 2nd number was worn off, but then if it is worn then the E may look like it was to be a B??
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-09-29 16:55
Picture's too dark for me to tell anything. If the letter is a B, the clarinet is probably a B12 -- plastic student model. A B12 could have the serial number you gave.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: spfrosty
Date: 2009-09-29 17:09
By looking at the picture it is not plastic, its wood. You (or I anyway) can see the wood grain in it and it also has a burgundy hue to it. I think the seller is mistaking the E for a B.
Jack, the logo says:
[Lyre symbol on top here]
Buffet
Crampon
Paris
BC
all wrapped in a dashed style oval
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-30 00:17
Jack, thanks for pointing out my error. I went back and edited it.
Frosty, contact me directly via e-mail. Click on my screen name for my address.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-09-30 00:21)
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Author: spfrosty
Date: 2009-10-09 19:15
Ok, yet another question regarding serial numbers and identifications.
From the serial number and the info returned on Buffet website about it, how do you know if it is an "A" or "Bb" ? I'm sure our daughters' teacher would not like us sending her to school with an "A" ... :-) !
Here is the info I got from the website about a particular R13 that I am yet again looking at. I was not originally aware that the R13 came in 3 different keys.
Brand : Buffet Crampon
Instrument : R 13 Am�rique
Serial number : 168XXX
Year of manufacturing : 22/07/1976
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