 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Rapidcif
Date: 2009-10-06 19:15
guess who's back. Back again. It's Jimmy. I want to ask how i can darken my tone because right now it's too bright. I am currently using a plastic clarinet(getting a ycl-650 soon), and size 2.5-3 vandoren reeds (3.5s are still in the process of breaking in) so could my clarinet or reed be a reason my tone is so bright? I also use a vandoren b-45 mouthpiece and a Rover Evo-5 ligature.
Overall i need tips on how to darken my tone. Thank you all for your help i apreciate it.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-06 19:46
There are many reasons for you getting a bright tone and one has to work at changing it, it's not always simple. It's not as simple as just changing one thing, so my opinion is this. The plastic clarinet doesn't help getting a darker tone but that's probably the smallest reason, unless that particular instrument is very bright, I'm not familiar with it. I used to have several students years ago that liked the B45 and none of them got a bright sound. As a matter of fact I used to like it for my intermediate students because it seemed to "darken" their sound. I don't think your ligature is a problem either. With that said I think the first thing you need to change is your reed. Soft reeds tend to sound brighter than hard reeds, as long as you don't use a reed that's too hard, that would be counter productive and could be bright and course. It also depends on the brand of reed you're using. Then you have to be doing things properly like having a good embouchure, breathing properly, keeping your throat opened, not choking etc. Check my website for the articles on clarinet playing to see what I consider to be the proper ways to play the clarinet. Then you have to work at getting a darker sound over time and you may have to change mouthpiece at some point because not everyone gets the same result with the same mouthpiece. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: huff n' puff
Date: 2009-10-07 15:26
Hi, rapidcif....... some time back in a reply to me a member said that a mouthpiece with a broader tip-rail would be less bright than a narrow one.
Ed, maybe it was you?....... H n' P.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-07 17:02
This is also one of those cases where it's difficult to offer good advice since we can't hear your tone, or see what you might be doing incorrectly and which can be fixed without buying anything else. Best bet is to find a local teacher, if you aren't already taking lessons, and check with the teacher.
Jeff
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-07 17:02
Please delete....duplicate post.
Thanks!
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-10-07 17:03)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-07 17:49
H P, it wasn't me that said that but they might be right in many cases. I know some mouthpieces like the Pynes are supposed to be dark sounding but I've heard some players with them that sounded bright. It so much depends on the player. ESP
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Author: Rapidcif
Date: 2009-10-07 18:39
due to personal conflicts i dont have a private teacher at the moment so i just want to know in general wat ppl do to get a darker tone. Thx.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-10-07 18:49
Many thing affect your tone: (1) how much of your lower lip is over your teeth, (2) the position of your teeth relative to the mouthpiece, (3) the thickness of the pad of your lower lip over your teeth and the position of the corners of your mouth, (4) the horizontal flatness of your lower lip, (5) the shape of your throat, (6) the position of your soft palate and tongue (7) the position of the tip of your tongue, and (8) the position of your upper lip.
(1) The usual embouchure has the chin pointed, the skin flat between the lower lip and the bottom of the chin, and about half the red part of the lower lip over the lower teeth.
If you pull the tip of your chin down, stretching the skin tight, this pulls the red part of your lip forward. This makes the pad over the teeth thinner and also leaves less of the red part behind your teeth. You can do this until only about 1/4 of the red part is over your teeth. The result is that the tone has more energy and high partials -- i.e., it is more soloistic and energetic. I do this when have a solo, when I need to balance or be heard while playing in the low register, particularly in the throat tones from first-line G up to Bb. If you roll out too far, though, the tone becomes metallic, and it's easy to squeak.
If you move up the point of your chin slightly, this lets your lower lip roll in further over your teeth, thickening the pad and putting more of the red part (about 3/4) inside your teeth. This decreases the high partials. I do this when I need to blend in with other instruments and when I'm not playing the melody. However, if you roll in too far, the tone becomes muffled.
(2) The lower teeth should be directly below the place where the reed begins to curve away from the mouthpiece rails.
If you move the lower teeth get too high the tone becomes screechy and unpleasant. It also interferes with control of the reed, since any change in lip pressure presses only against the mouthpiece.
If the teeth are too low, it muffles and darkens the tone. However, the tone also loses its "clarinetty" character. I do this only when I need to be practically inaudible. There are better ways to do this, and I think the teeth/mouthpiece position should always be the same.
(3) The thickness of the lower lip pad (between the teeth and the reed) affects the tone. When the pad is thin, the tone becomes more resonant and also more bright. When it's thick, the tone becomes less resonant, smoother and more dark. You can make the pad thinner in two says: (a) by relaxing your lower lip just outside of the red area, and (b) by moving the corners of your mouth in or out.
(a) Relaxing your lip makes it bulge out. This lets the pad get thinner, but the bulge thickens it at the same time. This reduces resonance. For me, it's a no-no.
(b) Moving the corners of your lip further apart can produce the much-criticized "smile" embouchure. However, I think you need to have this in your bag of tricks, and smiling a small amount increases resonance. You can thicken the pad by bringing the corners of your mouth in, producing a slightly puckered, "aardvark" embouchure. This darkens and can muffle the tone, in both the low and high frequencies. It's also tiring. I adjust the corners of my mouth only occasionally.
(4) The reed vibrates best when your lower lip lies flat across from left to right. Of course your lip has to curve up to prevent air leaks, but if you pucker more than a little, it binds the edges of the reed and kills color and resonance. You keep the lip flat by not tensing too much at the corners of your mouth -- just enough to prevent air leaks.
(5) As Ed Palanker says, you need to keep your throat relatively open. The standard advice is to imagine you have a hot potato stuffed down your throat, and you're trying to avoid being burned.
(6) You also need to keep your soft palate and the rear of your tongue high, with the tongue making a "ski jump" shape down to the front.
(7) You should not push against your lower lip with the tip of your tongue, which muffles the tone. Pushing with your tongue moves more of your lip up against the reed, which is a Bad Thing (unless you're doing it to blend better). I think rolling the lip in works better.
(8) I think I sound best when my jaw is comparatively low. I do this by playing double lip, which moves my teeth farther apart. It's not easy to learn, and initially involves pain and unsteadiness when you don't have any fingers on the top of the clarinet (e.g., open G and first-space F and the high C above it). Players who use single lip work to strengthen the upper lip, so that the upper teeth rest only lightly on the top of the mouthpiece. Ralph McLane, who played double lip, said "the mouthpiece rests in a bed of roses."
Now this means doing many things at once, and nobody can think about all of them at the same time. Instead, learn them one at a time, preferably with your teacher listening and coaching you. When you work at home, sit with your chair facing into a corner, which reflects the sound back and lets you here changes in tone better. Make the changes slow and small.
The more different tones you can make, the better.
Ken Shaw
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Author: srattle
Date: 2009-10-07 23:05
I think Ken has some interesting, and well explained ideas.
What I would say, is you should first really consider why you want to 'darken' your tone, and also what a dark tone really means to you.
The term dark and bright are thrown about a lot, but I think everyone has a slightly different idea of what the terms mean.
I would suggest trying to come up with other words that describe to you what you want in your sound. Then experiment with playing while keeping those ideas in your head. Most likely you'll be able to start getting closer to what you want, and then with the help of a teacher, advance even further.
I think it's not such a good idea for people to look for this elusive 'dark tone'. A tone color is so much more than dark, just like saying a dark wall doesn't really tell you anything thing about the color of the wall.
Keep the idea of what YOU want in your head, and work with a teacher to achieve that. Most likely the end result will be something you're happy with.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-10-07 23:18
Sacha is absolutely correct. You must have the sound you want in your head else you'll never get it. The points Ken makes can well help you achieve the sound, but ONLY once you have a complete mental/aural picture of what you want.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-10-08 00:04
srattle and Norman -
I think it's a combination. That is, you can start off with the sound of a player you admire, whether it's your teacher, Marcellus, Leister, de Peyer, or even Acker Bilk. Then you experiment to find a way to make it, which is part physical and part mental.
On the other hand, it's difficult to try to make a "dark" sound. It's too abstract, although it can be made somewhat more specific by saying "weaker high frequencies," or by listening to someone your teacher identifies as having a dark sound.
But experimenting with what's possible should include even sounds you don't like, or that don't sound much like a clarinet. For example, I have played the viola part in a string quartet during several reading sessions. I worked hard to make a viola-like tone, and even approximate a pizzicato. Contemporary music specialists learn to play multiphonics, which they tell me improve their "standard" playing. I think it's always always useful to be able to go beyond what you would do in public performance.
Learning by experiment to make sounds you had never made or even imagined before creates new ideas for what you want to sound like.
Imitation and experimentation work with and off of one another. It's thesis, antithesis and synthesis, where you come out with something new and previously unimagined (or even previously unimagineable).
Ken Shaw
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Author: JMB
Date: 2009-10-08 02:47
Wow i'm gonna have to copy all that stuff down Ken. Lately I've been working on (aka sitting in a chair, facing a corner, and playing long tones hours at a time) bringing out different overtones by just experimenting and not really knowing what to do but i'm definitely going to try this stuff. One thing that may help you is to learn how to pick out each different note you hear, other than the one your fingering, and try to bring each one of those out until you find something you like.
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Author: jims
Date: 2009-10-11 08:17
I recently bought a Vandoren Deutsch mouthpiece. The tone is terrific and there's a subtle darkness to it. Not too much or too little, but just enough.
I have that paired with a Rovner Mk III and couldn't be happier with my tone.
Jim
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Author: DougR
Date: 2009-10-11 14:02
Interesting that none of the posts so far have mentioned breathing and/or "support" (another elusive semantic concept, sort of like your "dark tone" or your "Kaspar Chicago sound").
The guy I'm currently studying with (and I've been playing clarinet for decades) is working with me not only on all the concepts described (and believe me, these are "keeper" posts that I'll be gratefully archiving) but also on breathing, where the breath comes from, how it's produced, etc. etc. etc.
Currently I'm using double-lip at the beginning of practice sessions as a "reference" for establishing both what my normal single-lip sound "ought" to sound like, but also for establishing the degree of support (originating 3" below the belly button, in my current vernacular) required to make it work. (I do these "reference tones" on both soprano & bass clarinet).
Breathing and breath support may or may not be pertinent to the quest for a "dark" tone, but they certainly are crucial for developing one's personal sound, I think.
At the moment I'm wondering whether to go double-lip for everything. The pain to the upper lip and the disconcerting wobbliness of the clarinet are a little off-putting, however.
To rapidcif I would just say A) good luck, and B) find a teacher, since (in my experience anyway) you can save yourself a lot of solitary, unproductive fumphing around. (again, MY experience--YMMV)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2009-10-12 01:57
Ken Shaw wrote:
"(b) Moving the corners of your lip further apart can produce the much-criticized "smile" embouchure."
The "smile embouchure" was the cause of my developing embouchure dystonia. IMHO, I would avoid this embouchure position like the plague unless you really, really, really know what you are doing. IMO, it's far too easy to overtighten the muscles on the sides of your mouth with a resultant overstraining effect which can be devastating to the associated muscles.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Post Edited (2009-10-12 02:04)
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2009-10-13 09:30
In general, the "smile" embouchure will produce a "brighter" sound as opposed to an embouchure with the corners applying inward pressure.
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-10-13 10:10
I had some lessons with the principal clarinetist of the Petrozavodsk Philharmonic Orchestra at the conservatory in Petrozavodsk, Russia this summer, and he wanted me to "smile" as much as I could, especially when playing staccato. I found this very helpful as it improved my staccato a great deal.
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-10-13 10:52
Dan -
I didn't propose using the "smile" embouchure all the time -- just as a method of varying the tone. In fact, I was careful to note that the smile should be only a slight one, used only for special purposes. I play double lip all the time, and if anything I bring the corners of my mouth in rather than out.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2009-10-13 12:04
My main teacher would only to tell me to smile if a note was a bit flat. It was not an adjustment to the tone at all.
Vanessa.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2009-10-13 16:11
Hi Ken,
I didn't mean to infer that you were proposing a wrong embouchure. I did take note that you went to great lengths to propose a "slight smile".
What I was referring to was the type of "smile" embouchure mentioned by Joarkh. This was my principal way of playing and, yes, stacatto playing was a breeze. This was the embouchure taught to me back in the late 50's.
Perhaps the "smile as much as you can" may work well for others, but, as the decades past by, it certainly was disastrous for me.
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