 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2009-10-01 19:59
Well i have been playing on my old vandoren m30 mouth piece and my teacher thinks its time for a change. Im doing the switch to a custom one one year earlier than planned. What are the benefits of custom mouthpieces in terms of tone, etc? And is it worth the money? what are some brands that are good ? and how much money would this set me back???? im a high school clarinetist that is 1st in Allstates and in my band.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-10-01 20:14
How old is your M30? Does it still work well for you?
I use an M15 which I really like, but I know that the M30 is a very fine mouthpiece. If your M30 is in good shape and it plays well for you (and in tune), I don't see the point in changing. I know some college clarinet teachers who recommend them. If you were a professional player I might consider looking at a custom mouthpiece, but I really don't see any reason for a high school musician to do this.
Unless there is a very good reason for changing mouthpieces, don't. Save your money and put it in your college fund.
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Author: bcl1dso
Date: 2009-10-01 20:40
Don't be too quick to jump to a "custom" mouthpiece. There are MANY professionals and extremely fine college students that play on Vandoren.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-10-01 20:51
I disagree with one point of clarinetguy. Even if you're not a professional, if you enjoy playing, and want to make your music sound as beautiful as you can, I see no reason NOT to look into a custom mouthpiece. It's going to be the best improvement you could make dollar for dollar.
The main benefit I've noticed from a custom mouthpiece is that it tends to hold a good sound at the extreme dynamics. With the commercially produced mouthpieces (which I also have an M30 and I agree with clarinetguy that it is a FINE mouthpiece - for less than a hundred bucks it's amazing!), I find that it's hard and sometimes impossible for me to hold a good tone at a triple forte or triple pianissimo. Also, a well-crafted mouthpiece can really help you control the sound over the break, and help eliminate undertones you might get with other mouthpieces in the upper clarion.
It could set you back anywhere from 100 - 300 dollars, maybe more depending on the maker.
One thing you might consider is sending your current mouthpiece to a mouthpiece refacer to get touched up. I've always had positive results on having a mouthpiece refaced and it costs much less than a custom mouthpiece. Sometimes less than half what a new mouthpiece would cost.
For makers, go ahead and check the sponsors of this board or search this board for custom mouthpieces.
Alexi
PS - For what it's worth, I don't see myself ever going back to a commercially produced mouthpiece. I've spent some $$$ on custom mouthpieces, but I've had many more success stories with mouthpiece makers than trying out mass-produced mouthpieces.
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Author: srattle
Date: 2009-10-01 21:08
If you have a money for it, I don't see any reason not to get one.
If you don't have the money, then I don't think it's necessary to do it immediately. That you have to decide (and possibly your parents)
I wouldn't let a teacher 'force' you into a new mouthpiece, but on the other hand, if you trust your teacher, and he thinks that you are ready for a step up, and that it would really benefit you for the future, and you have some kind of a budget for this expense (I would put the price for custom mouthpieces anywhere from $200 to $600) then go for it. A new mouthpiece can do wonders for someone's playing, but you are also only in highschool, and can probably still learn a lot using your vandoren mouthpiece.
Good luck with your decision
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2009-10-02 00:48
Yeah, she even said so herself, "its not holding you back now, and probably not for another year but i think it could help you".
and yes my m30 is 3 years old, beautiful sound with my selmer from the 40s.
so basically a custom mouthpiece would improve tone even more, improve dynamics, and better control?
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-10-02 01:02
I'd say yes to all these. Communicate with Walter Grabner or Greg Smith. They would be a good start.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-10-02 01:12
Thomas Thompson, of the Pittsburgh symphony plays M15, and pushes all of his students towards them.
He convinced me to switch to one. I used to play a Fobes Cicero 13. However, my M15 (which I went through 10ish to find), has a much more centered, singing tone to it. It's not quite as bright, but I can open up the sound through voicing all I need, and the extreme volumes are not to difficult.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
Post Edited (2009-10-02 04:23)
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Author: Joseph Brenner, Jr.
Date: 2009-10-02 01:22
You said/asked:
so basically a custom mouthpiece would improve tone even more, improve dynamics, and better control?
While I'd not count myself among the hypothetical camp that would spur you to buy a new mouthpiece, I would agree with most,but not all,of your comment. A custom mouthpiece might/could improve tone even more.... If you're inclined to change mouthpieces, then you must try several mouthpieces and, preferably talk to mouthpiece makers. If one goes into a store and picks an expensive suit off the rack and buys it, it may fit, it may not fit, or it may barely fit. However well made the suit is, it's not designed to fit the buyer. I doubt that a maker of custom mouthpieces will measure the capacity of your mouth and throat, the density of your tongue and teeth and any fillings or restorations in your mouth. But you must have some sense of what you want, and communicate that clearly to any dealer or manufacturer. Tell the dealer or manufacturer what you're playing, what you like and don't like about your sound, volume, ability to attack tones cleanly. By knowing what you want, what you don't like about
what you have, you can help the dealer/manufacturer know what you're after. Then you must try mouthpieces. Because I like my X mouthpiece designed by the Great Mouthpiece Ayatollah or Pope doesn't mean that you will like my X mouthpiece. So, if you are seriously inclined to buy a custom made mouthpiece, prepare to define what you want and then prepare to talk a lot and try a lot. The dealer can't help you unless you first help yourself. Happy hunting.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-10-02 01:23
yearsofwisdom:
First let me say that I play a custom made mouthpiece. Second, let me say that having your teacher tell you to get one is in my opinion not casting a very good light on her.
I see only really two reasons to try new mouthpieces:
1- What you have is not satisfactory (you don't like the way it feels/sounds or someone else thinks you could benefit from a different set up)
2- You feel like exploring
It is not because you *need* to *upgrade* to a *custom* made.
The best mouthpiece for you (or me, or anyone for that matter) does not have to be custom made. In fact the best mouthpiece for you may be the one you currently play.
If you must go down the road of trying something new. Get as many mouthpieces as you can both man made and machine made, try them *blind* with a trustworthy friend equipped with a good set of ears and pick the best mouthpiece for *you*, based on how it sounds and perhaps most importantly how it feels.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: klarion
Date: 2009-10-02 12:57
Haven't read all the posts yet, so I'll give you a quick personal experience:
I've played various Vandoren model m.p.'s since I was 11 years old and was never truly happy with the way it felt. I've also tried pretty much every other custom built mouthpiece I could get my hands on. Generally speaking, custom mouthpieces were superior to factory finished Vandorens - but still didn't FEEL right. About 2.5 years ago I tried a Charles Bay piece and fell in love with the Feel, Sound and quality of it. I'm still playing it and there is no sign of wear or chipping (something that quickly happened to all my Vandoren pieces) and it still plays and feels the same way as the day I bought it!
--
... Breathe! It might help you play. - clarinet lesson
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Author: klarion
Date: 2009-10-02 13:13
@ sylvain:
Having a teacher suggest a possible improvement and a new mouthpiece does not shed any kind of unfavorable light on her! In fact, in your second paragraph you mention: "I see only really two reasons to try new mouthpieces: .... or someone else thinks you could benefit from a different set up."
So, I'm not sure about the contradiction in your post...
Also, the teacher possibly has a very good idea of what a student needs and many students might not realize that there is something better out there because they simply have not tried different things yet...
Personally, I recommend that all my beginner students immediately switch from their "toy" mouthpieces to a Vandoren mouthpiece. Is it because I think they won't be beginners anymore, or because I know they will have an easier time of it and sound better?!
--
... Breathe! It might help you play. - clarinet lesson
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Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2009-10-02 13:28
I think because we all want to play music to the best of our ability that we forget that music business is a music business. As in with any other industry, they use that desire to make money. The big manufacturers of clarinets are coming with new horns to inspire a new surge of clarinet sales, especially in a time when the economy is in the dumps.
Anyone who is in the business of selling equipment simply wants a piece of the pie and any type of encouragement that compels clarinetist to buy products is always good for them. Look at some of the big hitters in the market right now, they aren't driving 1983 honda civics and mowing lawns on the weekend to pay the rent.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-10-02 13:46
My problem is not that she recommends trying something new, rather that she feels that it needs to be a custom made mouthpiece.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-10-02 14:09
Since I do make custom mouthpieces, perhaps my advice would be useful here.
Feeling that you are uncomfortable with your current mouthpiece means that you should look for a different mouthpiece- one that you feel comfortable with. That COULD be another mass produced piece or it COULD be a hand finished piece.
You may find that a different model of the same brand is to your liking, or a different brand entirely, or a custom mouthpiece that is not made en masse might be what you really do need. Or, in the end, you may fine that just a different mouthpiece of the same make and model is best.
The only way to know is to try them and see what you like.
What are the benefits? Generally (but this is not true for all brands that fall in the category "custom"), hand finished pieces are checked by the maker and there are less or no "lemons" that ever get sent out to the customer. Also, many hand-finishers will be happy to adjust a piece to your liking or make one to your descriptions. You could say to them, "The one you sent is okay, but do you have something that is brighter with less resistance." And then they can send you something else that they feel might be more to your liking.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-02 17:21
There ARE good reasons to look at a REAL custom finished mouthpiece. The most notable is that someone who really knows what he is doing will finish the dimensions with great constancy from one side of the opening to the other.....particularly as you get closest to the tip - VERY CRITICAL.
I have tried quite a few of Greg Smith's mouthpieces (mainly becaues he is very good about letting you try a spectrum of his work) and have found his work to be immaculate on this score.
As for Vandorens, they are very consistant of late and I have little if anything to complain about, however, the Smith mouthpieces at about $250 (last time I checked) are truly a step up. Just find the facing amongst his vast repertoire that suits YOU.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-10-02 18:21
All Smith mouthpiece are priced at $300 which I personally think is a bit on the high side(never tried them) compared to Zinner mouthpieces by Ridenour,Grabner,Fobes and Behn to name few. But while there is a market for his mouthpieces at this price tag then it will be priced this high and that goes for any maker.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-02 19:51
First of all Vandoren makes many mouthpieces that Professional players use so don't write them off. They are also very reasonably priced. The one you are using may not be the best one for you, the only way you will know that is to try others out. Everyone has their favorite MP but that doesn't mean ther're best for you. Even with the same brand and facing, every MP plays slightly different. You should wait until you go to college to get a custom MP if it's even necessary. So many teachers have their "favorite" MP for better of for worse. If you want you can go to the Vandoren store in NYC and try out all they make, or go to Weiners in Queens and try out what they stock, which is Vandorens as well as many others. Make an appointment in any case. You can also order from the mail order stores and try four at a time on a trial basis. In that case ask your teacher which ones you should try first. You can keep doing that, or do it from several stores at a time. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2009-10-02 20:31
Thanks for all the responses guys, keep them coming. I just wanted to further add that my teacher has ordered 10 different custom mouthpieces for 3 students and we are all trying them out. It's not a forced buy in a any regard but one of what feels/ will help me improve the most in terms of feel tone etc. I also wonder, since my wind ensemble director tells me to play louder, would a new mouthpiece possibly help me project/ play louder without sacrificing tone? the m30 doesn't seem to project extremely well.
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Author: OmarHo
Date: 2009-10-03 02:24
My opinion is this:
Unless you are having serious critical issues with your current mouthpiece, such as overall poor intonation, having trouble finding good reeds to match, etc...then I suggest you work with what you ALREADY have, because after all, at the end of the day, you're always going to sound like yourself no matter what you're playing.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-10-03 08:59
Quote:
hanks for all the responses guys, keep them coming. I just wanted to further add that my teacher has ordered 10 different custom mouthpieces for 3 students and we are all trying them out. Excellent. You'll be able to see for yourself whether they feel/sound better or not. Come back with your thoughts on them.
Alexi
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-10-03 15:15
Too often playing with more projection often ends up meaning playing brighter. It is possible that a different MP will give you more projection without getting unpleasantly brighter but as Omar said, in the long run you're going to end up sounding like yourself. The exception of course is if you make a long time commitment to sound different. That takes constant work on your part. Otherwise no matter what MP you choose in time you will gravitate back to your comfort level and sound as you. You have to find a MP that you are comfortable playing with that you can control and play in tune. Then it's a matter of finding and working on your reeds to find the "sound" that you're looking for. Of course playing correctly, embouchure, breathing, open throat, proper tongue position play a major roll in that too. No matter what MP or reed or ligature or clarinet you use if you want to project more you have to do those things I've mentioned correctly. What good is changing a MP if you're blocking the flow of air in your throat or not using your air properly or your tongue is preventing the even flow of air from it's source to the MP. As a famous person once said, "It takes a village". It applies in this case as well if you apply it to doing "every thing" right to get a good sound and still project. Check my website for some clarinet articles on doing that properly. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-10-03 17:19
Since your teacher is there with you and sees and hears you play regularly, absent evidence to the contrary, I for one am willing to infer that she's a competent professional who knows what she's doing when she says she thinks your mouthpiece is suboptimal and you could find an improvement.
It seems to me that there are two ways to buy a mouthpiece, analogous to buying a new pair of slacks: (1) you can go to a store or have a selection sent to you and try a bunch on until you find something you like that fits, or (2) you can go to a tailor, tell the tailor what you want and have something custom made. In the latter case, after an initial fitting you can have some alterations done. In my mind, only if you take the second approach are you truly buying a "custom" mouthpiece.
If you take the first route, you can usually try "production" items of varying quality, ranging from Levis (e.g., Vandorens) to more upscale brands (Smith, Fobes, Grabner, Behn, Redwine, Krass, Lomax etc.). Regardless, you are still trying on production items in an attempt to find one that fits you satisfactorily. If you opt for the more upscale brands, which are usually made of better material, involve more hand finishing, etc., you should expect to pay more than you will for assembly line goods. Whether you will like the upscale goods better or whether they will fit better than the assembly line goods is, IMO, something of a crapshoot. I personally think that, if you can find something that fits, you will be happier with the quality of the upscale brands but, if you get lucky with the Levis, you can save a lot of money. Some people find that items fit perfectly right off the rack . Others need more customizing. Regardless, if you adopt the first approach and you want the best results, expect to spend a lot of time going to different "stores" and trying things on unless you are one of the very lucky. ("You want to get yourself a bargain, son. Don't be fooled by the very first one.") Also recognize that, if you buy the assembly line brand, you may have to pay for alterations.
If you want to go the second route, I would recommend that, instead of looking for the best national reputation, you look for a good local mouthpiece maker and make an appointment to pay him/her a visit. Or go to one of the clarinet conferences where custom makers are likely to attend (but be aware that they might not be able to give you much individual attention if they are popular.) A good experienced mouthpiece maker will understand the intricacies of design and know how to tweak a mouthpiece to change its characteristics to your liking. IMO, a face-to-face approach gives the best chance of a good fit.
However, also IMO, the tailor-made approach probably only makes sense for someone who has been playing long enough that their embouchure and other aspects of playing have largely stabilized so that they are not likely to grow out of a tailor-made in a short time. Also, for either method to work, you really have to know what you are looking for and how to recognize it when you find it.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2009-10-03 17:24)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-10-03 19:56
Hmmmm, I would never really equate "Projection" with the quality of a mouthpiece. The M30 has thicker rails than its cousins but that only really affects the response.
I would strongly recommend giving some attention to using your breath in the most efficient manner. That is, make sure you are focusing the column of air to be as quick and compact as possible. Voicing: think the "EEEEE" sound or just leave your tongue in the position it has when you're at rest (perhaps like right now). Thinking "AHHH" only stuffs the back of your tongue into your throat causing the air column to slow down - BAD.
You should be able to achieve projection and volume on any mouthpiece. The difference is in how well it responds and how well it lets you change color at will.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-10-03 21:00
All of these responses are quite interesting. Your question reminded me of my own experiences in high school and college, and yes, a custom mouthpiece was involved.
In the early 70s after my sophomore year of high school, I got a new R13. It was clear to my teacher that my old Woodwind K-8 mouthpiece would no longer do. As I selected my new instrument in the music store, I tried a Portnoy mouthpiece that I really liked, but my teacher told me he could do even better for me. He was working on a masters degree at the time, and his teacher had connections with someone who was making custom mouthpieces with Sumner blanks (I'm not sure if he was working on already-existing Sumner mouthpieces or if he was actually creating his own mouthpieces with Sumner's product). The Sumner mouthpiece was fine, but I didn't have the opportunity to try it along with others. I also never had the opportunity to meet the man who had worked on it. It was just sold to me, and I was told that it would be the mouthpiece that I would be using.
It turned out to be all right, and I used it during my high school and college years. While in college, my teacher arranged to have it refaced, but again, I was not given the opportunity to meet the man who had worked on it. Looking back now, I think it was a good mouthpiece, but it wasn't outstanding. I wonder if it was really the best mouthpiece for me.
After graduating, I had had enough of it and I stopped using it. I later used a B-45 (which a teacher in grad school recommended), but after a while I became more and more frustrated with it and gave it up. This was followed with a Blayman (a very nice mouthpiece) and my current M15.
It is possible that one of these custom mouthpieces will be better than what you already have, but there are no guarantees. If you really think that you need a new mouthpiece you can try them, but before you buy, also try some other mass-produced mouthpieces. It's very possible that you'll decide that it's worth keeping your M30.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-10-03 21:44
<<You should be able to achieve projection and volume on any mouthpiece.>>
With all due respect, I am going to disagree with this statement. In my testing, working with clarinet players far better than I, we have found considerable differences in projection between various mouthpiece designs.
The ability to project through a major symphony orchestra may be THE critical component of a given mouthpiece design, all other things being equal.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
New and Used Buffet Clarinets
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2009-10-04 04:54
Well i just wanted to add as well that my teacher is EXTREMELY PICKY on equipment, so if it doesn't fit me in any way, she will not let me have it. That's why it took her 2 years to find me a clarinet. Also, if i do find the right custom MP, she will definitely have it refaced. Which I'm not sure what it means?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-10-04 05:41
yearsofwisdom wrote:
> Also, if i do find the right custom MP, she will
> definitely have it refaced.
Sorry - but that makes no sense at all.
...GBK
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Author: yearsofwisdom
Date: 2009-10-04 05:49
Well if i do find the right MP, i will have it refaced? or that's what my teacher said? or maybe i just heard wrong?
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-04 13:29
Refacing a mouthpiece usually happens to an older one, or one that isn't correctly finished. An artisan will reface a mouthpiece, working on the facing curve with abrasives, to get better response from the mp. To reface a custom mp that you just bought would be like buying a car built to your specifications, then taking it to a body shop for more work. Doesn't make a bit of sense.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2009-10-04 13:29)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-10-04 13:43
"Well if i do find the right MP, i will have it refaced? or that's what my teacher said? or maybe i just heard wrong?"
Maybe you heard wrong. If you find a good mouthpiece, don't have it adjusted at all. Trying to improve something that you already like is a recipe for disaster.
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Author: Ryan K
Date: 2009-10-05 19:36
It wouldn't be worth it to reface an M30. Costs as much as the mouthpiece itself.
If you really had a special M30, and have damaged it, and don't think you could replace it, that's when you look into refacing.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-10-07 03:07
Yearsofwisdom:-,
There's a great article on mouthpieces that is very easy to understand and goes right to the points. It's on:
http://eddiesclarinet.com/
Just go to the site and click on "clarinet articles" near the top of the screen, then look at the list on the page that comes up and select: " DOES ONE MOUTHPIECE FIT ALL."
I think that he mentioned that there was information on his site a bit earlier, but I thought that I'd give you the detailed lowdown on how to get to the article on mouthpieces. I hope that this helps.
Take Care
Just Me
http://woodwindforum.ning.com/
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
Post Edited (2009-10-07 03:08)
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Author: 2E
Date: 2009-10-07 03:33
i recently upgraded from an M30 to a backun mouthpiece to match my barrel and its paired really nicely, the sound is really pure and the mouthpiece responds and articulates really well. Ive tried a few greg smiths and the Backun was very similar but felt and sounded nicer to play on, try them out.
2E.
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