 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: sarah.mah
Date: 2009-09-27 09:11
Hello! I have read several threads on the Bboard about some ways to upgrade the E11 instead of buying a new clarinet. I am an advanced orchestral player and I've had some intonation problems on my E11 lately. Its 7 years old. Time for a replacement clarinet? I'll be sending in my Buffet soon to a repair technician to repad my set of pads in hopes of making some improvements. My current setup is a Vandoren 5RV Lyre mouthpiece and a Vandoren German lig. I am very much interested in either purchasing a Vandoren M13 Lyre mpc or a new Moenig or Chadesh barrel. What is your suggestion?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-27 14:14
My suggestion would be to discuss your options with a competent teacher in your area. It's really impossible to speculate on which (if either) or the purchases you are planning on would be more of an improvement for your instrument. If you are planning on either the new MPO or barrel based just on other people saying they are good, that is the wrong reason to purchase one. You need to try out as many different mouthpieces as you can to find the one which suits you the best. Same goes for barrels.
You were a little unclear about the E11. Is that the Buffet you were referring to, or do you also own a better level clarinet than the E11? I'm personally noyt a big E11 devotee. Earlier Evette models were IMO far better instruments than the E11 clarinet. Again, this is something best duiscussed with your teacher.
Jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2009-09-27 14:52
I assume your intonation problems would be playing too high (sharp)? The stock barrel, as you may have seen in other threads on this bboard, are rather short for playing at 442. Looking in to a barrel (I prefer moennig) that's 66-67mm would give you a better shot at playing in tune.
Keeping in mind, the clarinet will only play in tune if you're able to hear the notes in tune.
The 5RV Lyre is a good mouthpiece. If it's the same one you've been using for 7 years and you're no longer happy with it (or feel something else would be better) start searching for a new mouthpiece. However, before you start ordering tons of mouthpieces, just try some new 5RV Lyres. They vary from mouthpiece to mouthpiece and you might find something that gives you a slightly better\different sound.
As mentioned above, it would be best to have a teacher to guide you a bit. Even though there are many knowledgeable people on this board, no one can guide you to the end product without hearing you or examining your current setup.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sarah.mah
Date: 2009-09-27 15:41
Yes, I agree that I need a teacher But I am a recent graduate, and haven't had some private lessons in awhile. I have kept up with my clarinet in a pro freelance orchestra. I was referring to my current Buffet E11. On the Bboard threads, I noticed how many negative things were being said about the E11, but I've also read a lot of good reviews on this instrument and so far it has served me well as an advaced player. I think my orchestra tunes to A=440. I am actually using a Vandoren 5RV Lyre 13 series. Does this mouthpiece tune to 440 since it is a 13 series? Somehow, I just felt that my clarinet was sharp and not in tune with the orchestra. My clarinet buddy uses a Vandoren B40 mouthpiece and loves it. I love it how she was able to play all her 1st solo parts well and in better tone on her R13. Also, I am trying to find a mouthpiece where I have a much better projection and tone as I sometimes play solos. Any suggestions on some mouthpiece models? Although I use Vandoren and Buffet a lot, I am open to other brands. At this point, I don't see myself upgrading to a better Buffet pro model as I am saving some of my finances for it later
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NBeaty
Date: 2009-09-27 16:17
The 13 series does tune lower, and is intended for 440 use. The odds of it still being high on the E11 are still good though. My E11 still plays pretty sharp with 13 series mouthpieces when tuning to 440 (naturally, I pull out the barrel and play in tune). The amount of adjustment is more than I would like to though. Luckily enough I don't play this instrument except when my R13 is in the shop.
I would be willing to bet that your clarinet buddy who plays with better projection would still have that projection when playing your setup than you do. Before changing equipment, make sure you're doing everything you can to get the sound you want.
It's still possible that you'll change your equipment, but don't do it before you've figured out what the possible fixes you can do to your own playing (which are free).
Things to consider would be:
-Breath control and support
-Free air stream with relaxed chest and throat
-Firm lips without biting
-Proper high tongue position
All the best,
Nathan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-27 20:44
I'd say look into getting a pro model (and a pair at that) - either new if you can, or better still used but in fully refurbished condition (which can often be better than new).
If you like Buffets, then look into getting a set of R13s as your colleague has. Try her clarinet out before a rehearsal or during a break, or see if she'll let you play it for part of a rehearsal and then you'll see how it plays in context with everything else going on around you.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-09-27 23:55
Now...teach me, tell me...I'm a rather simply-knitted amateur concert band player.
First thing I learned there is to tune in with the orchestra. Not just pitch wise but also acoustically. The raw tuning would tell you whether you're sharp or flat, pull/push the barrel as needed (or buy a longer/shorter one if your instrument is from the wrong side of the ocean). But then, to blend in acoustically, one uses the mouth cavity, breath support, articulation. Make it mellow, make it viperish. It's not about buying the right equipment and all that will magically fall into place. In all the recent concerts I've learned to be more ears than mouth, listen to each other just as much as play, and play so that you can't hear yourself. There is a lot of open ears and open mind involved, but it is very rewarding and a skill much sought, at least for us humble non-solo chairs.
Now, to the core of the claim that an E11 (or any other reasonably well-built instrument) will hinder your progress...I hear that all the time; I've tried quite a number of instruments, including my bandmates', and haven't found a definite answer. I mean, either the instrument makes 'click' when you have it in your hands and behaves like a part of your body, or it doesn't. This is not necessarily a function of the 'class' of an instrument, but composed of a zillion factors, at least in the nether meadows where I am grazing. What exactly would hamper my progress? Is it the keywork, the bore, the tone, ...? I've asked a number of people, and no one could give me a satisfying answer. (I don't mean to say there aren't hundred good reasons to upgrade, but none so far appeared to be compelling). For me, it boils down to ergonomics (mostly) and tone, if there weren't the mouthpiece and reed factors to consider, but not necessarily on the make, model number or price.
I don't think that Benny Goodman or Naftule Brandwein or any other 'way past' players had instruments so refined as ours, so there must be some attribution to the skill, not the material.
In a nutshell, Sarah, borrow some barrels, and maybe a mouthpiece or two and see how you're faring at the next rehearsal.
(You see that I somehow don't buy the idea that the instrument is the 'core' culprit)
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2009-09-28 03:53
"E-11 is ... not even close to being good enough for a paying job."
Oh, I don't know. What about polkas on Saturday night at the VFW?
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-28 10:00
I compared an E11 with an R13 when I had them both in a few years back, and there was no contest as to which played and sounded better.
The R13 had so much more warmth, resonance and refinement (and life) to it in comparison to the E11 which seemed lacking in comparison - it still played well, but definitely not in the same league as the R13.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-09-28 13:47
"With all due respect..." I've played e11's, when fitted with a decent barrel and mouthpiece, that I would not hesitate for a moment to play on a "paying job" -- and I mean band or orchestra. And the e11 Eb clarinet is so good that I know of at least one major US symphony player who plays it by preference!
I don't know why Buffet didn't provide their Bb e11's with a decent barrel to start with -- perhaps they wanted to make sure that the kids who use them upgrade to R13's, Festivals or Prestiges post haste. I haven't seen any of the French-made e11's yet; anybody have any experience with them?
Larry Bocaner
National Symphony Orchestra, Washington (retired)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: MartyMagnini
Date: 2009-09-29 00:16
I don't have any experience with playing the E-11 Bb, but I can second that the E-11 Eb I bought a few years ago is a very fine instrument (and I got it for a steal - $500 brand new!) - and I wouldn't hesitate to play it professionally.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-09-29 04:20
>> I haven't seen any of the French-made e11's yet;
>> anybody have any experience with them?
I've tried them. I don't remember them so much anymore, but from what I do, I though the tone was good and intonation seemed ok (from what was possible to judge at an exhibition, without a reference point like 440/441/etc.). I didn't look at the mehcanics much so no comments on that. I also remember the throat A key had a terrible position, too far from the first ring.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sarah.mah
Date: 2009-09-30 15:37
My current mouthpiece is a 5RV Lyre 13 series. Should I go for a mouthpiece or barrel upgrade? I would like to see some of your suggestions. Also, which mouthpiece works best with the E11? I've been told that the Vandoren B40 works well with my clarinet buddies. Any opinions about that? I play on size 4-5 reeds, so I presume the Vandoren B40 mouthpiece would not work for me? What's the difference between the Vandoren M13 and M15 if I were to choose between the two? If I were to decide on the barrel upgrade, which barrel - the Moenig or Chadesh works best with the E11 Bb and what barrel length should I get?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-09-30 15:51
If you switch mouthpieces, you adjust the reed selection to fit the mouthpiece. Don't base mp choice on the reeds you are currently using. If you decide to get a different mp, THEN make appropriate changes in the reed STRENGTH to suit the mouthpiece.
The E11 usually has a 65 mm barrel. Get a longer one, somewhee between 66 and 67 mm. Check how far you are pulling out now to be in tune with your ensemble.
The tapers in Moennig and Chadash barrels are to compensate for the "wide 12ths" in the design of R13 clarinets, and this does not necessarily mean one or the other is the best choice for an E11. Best bet is to rty some out and see which works best. As with Mouthpieces, barrels can vary significantly from one to the next, even within the same make/model.
Jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JamesOrlandoGarcia
Date: 2009-09-30 17:28
One of the best clarinetist I know who now really successful came from a lower-middle class family and they couldn't afford an r-13. This person beat everyone who had their high end clarinets and got into one of the best colleges in the country for clarinet on her set of E-11 clarinets.
I really feel it is really music companies that push for practically everyone to get a professional level clarinet. If someone has issues with the fundamentals of their playing that they do not "need" a professional level clarinet. I think this applies to a lot of students at all a lot of of colleges.
They will be much better off selecting a higher quality instrument when they have acquired their "professional" skills.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: systemxpert
Date: 2009-10-01 13:38
Just keep in mind one thing. The player makes the clarinet sound the way it does. Granted, there are differences between different horns, but there is also a ton a variation that can be introduced between the Reed, Mouthpiece, ligature, and barrel. It becomes rather subjective as to which clarinet sounds better than another and what is the root cause of the change. You might find your E11 just needs a new mouthpiece or maybe its time to move up to a harder reed.
Don't get too hyped up about the Buffet R13. I was a rank n file R13 player for years until I discovered Patricola. Music Instrument companies are always trying to convince people that the pro-level horn will magically make them sound better. The fact is the clarinet will only perform as good as the musician playing it.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-10-01 14:04
I'm surprised nobody else has mentioned this yet, but for the price of an E11, you can buy a new, pro-level instrument, in either Bb or A: the Ridenour Lyrique.
Just a thought.
Jeff
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2009-10-02 13:55
If Ricky Morales played an E11 at an audition and I played my R13 he'd still win!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: beantown_Bb
Date: 2009-10-02 15:35
I am no pro player, so I am not going to address that angle.
I *am* however, a former E11 owner, and I had a horrible time with mine. I believe a fair number of them are just plain lemons from what I can tell. Mine was so sharp it was unbelievable. I already use what many consider to be one of the lowest tuning mouthpieces (M13Lyre), I used a longer barrel, and I was still needing to pull out an ABSURD amount and adjust embouchure to a crazy degree to even TRY to be in tune.
I am sure what some of the others have said about improving breath support and tongue position, etc., would help, but that is awfully hard to do after playing for (in my case) 20 years on a clarinet where the tuning was excellent with the comfortable embouchure and good breath support. For me it was like need to train my body to do the WRONG thing instead of the right thing. That's how serious it was. To this end, I agree with whoever said either you and the horn click and work well in your group, or you don't (with some margin for being able to compensate). Me + E11 = don't click. Understatement of the year.
I finally got my Evette Master Model that was in very rough shape back into working order (the same horn I played for those previouslt mentioned 20 years), and all is well in the universe. I can play comfortably, and I have to kind of laugh when I find myself wincing before certain notes because I have grown conditioned to fear them over the past 2 years from my horrible experience with the E11.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clariniano
Date: 2009-10-04 14:21
Look into getting a used pro model--although if you don't have an A clarinet, you might want to hold off on upgrading your Bb. Sometimes craigslist has good deals on professional instruments, sometimes people sell them for about the same as a new intermediate. And if you need to sell your E11, talk to some of the good clarinet teachers--they may have a student who needs to upgrade their student model instrument for an intermediate one.
Meri
Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BartHx
Date: 2009-10-05 02:52
I have to agree that the player, mouthpiece, and reed are the most important parts of a setup regardless of what it is. Similar level instruments, regardless of manufacturer, are likely to give similar results with the same player, mp, reed combination. My brother (who got distracted by being a scientist) is not a pro, but is very good. When I was trying out my Selmer Series 10, I had him switch back and forth between it and his own R-13 with his own mp and reed in the next room. They had both been freshly set up and I could not tell which was which just by listening.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
