 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kenb
Date: 2009-09-18 07:12
Just heard a great LSO/Previn 1973 recording on radio. Wondering who played the big clarinet solo...
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-09-18 17:19
He wrote a great book titled "Clarinet" published by Schirmers, it's a great read. A fine player too. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-18 18:00
I doubt Classic FM would ever play this version (though they do play the Russian National Orchestra/Pletnev one - which is nice).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: DrGrip
Date: 2009-09-19 05:45
This is ABC classic fm I'm talking about, and they did play it as part of the top 100 symphony countdown.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-19 12:20
As good a clarinetist as he was, Jack Brymer was, I think, an even better saxophonist. I have an LP of Walton's Facade in which he steals the show from some very strong colleagues.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-19 12:34
Wonder if he ever dabbled with oboe? I reckon he'd be in the same league as Leon Goosens if he did.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-09-19 14:24
Chris P, Jack never dabbled in the Oboe, that's a fact. There is no mention of the oboe his book 'From Where I Sit'.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-19 16:04
Would have been interesting if he had.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2009-09-19 21:09
Have just been watching Rach 2 with Philharmonia Orchestra with Simon Rattle from Proms 1983. Don’t know who the clarinet player would have been but his vibrato in the solo was very tasteful and suitable for the style. It sounded more like popular love song than a classical piece and that’s actually not a bad approach to this solo.
Alphie
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-19 21:45
I like the way Rachmaninov milks this tune and doesn't seem to want it to finish. Also like the various counter melodies going on underneath it when it comes round again later on.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2009-09-20 02:35
IMHO, among the many recordings of the Rachmaninoff 2nd Symphony, the 1970s Previn/LSO recording is the finest of all. I bought the recording soon after its release and it remains one of my "desert island" group to this day.
Thank you, Peter Cigleris, for identifying Jack Brymer as the masterful clarinet soloist in that great recording.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-09-20 10:48
John Scorgie is right. Prompted by this thread, I listened to all the Rach 2 Adagio clips offered by a well-known online retailer. No-one achieves the warmth and resonance of Brymer in 1973.
Mind you, the 1973 recording was a remake of an earlier recording by Previn and the LSO, which they did for RCA. I haven't heard it for nearly 30 years, but my recollection is that it was even finer (but possibly before Brymer joined the LSO?). I've checked on and off to see if it had been reissued on CD, but this never happened - probably because they made some cuts in the finale. But I saw you could buy the LP online and have ordered it - we'll see if it's as good as I remember.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-09-20 11:19
Brymer joined the LSO in 1972 officially but probably freelanced with them while he was joint principal with Colin Bradbury in the BBC Symphony.
John I'm certain that it was Brymer on that recording. I should have asked him when I had a few lessons in the late 90s but, others have told me that it was Brymer.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2009-09-20 12:13
Why is he sometimes called Jack McCaw and sometimes John McCaw ? When I google both names pop up. But he is always called John McCaw when I see biography of some clarinetist here in Iceland who studied with him written.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-09-20 12:34
>>Why is he sometimes called Jack McCaw and sometimes John McCaw ?>>
In English-speaking countries, "Jack" is a common nickname for people named John. For example, U. S. President John F. Kennedy was commonly known as "Jack" to his relatives, close colleagues and personal friends and therefore he also will appear under both "John" and "Jack" in Google searches.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-09-20 13:26
>Why is he sometimes called Jack McCaw and sometimes John McCaw ? When >I google both names pop up. But he is always called John McCaw when I >see biography of some clarinetist here in Iceland who studied with him >written.
They were identical twins. When one of them had to sub out of a job, the other would take over. No one noticed since they played the same set up, dressed the same way, and talked the same way.
Only their Mum knew the truth.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-09-23 23:24
Well, my LP of the first Previn/LSO Rach 2 arrived. And my memories of 30 years ago weren't faulty: it was a superb performance. Similar to 1973 in many ways, although the Scherzo is significantly faster. The slow movement solo really gives Brymer 1973 stiff competition: the tone is perhaps even fuller, the dynamic range wider, more rubato is used. It's superb playing, and no recent recording that I've heard comes anywhere near.
Who was this god-like artist? The LP sleeve doesn't say. But now we have a great web resource at www.gramophone.net where you can find a complete past archive of reviews. According to this, the recording was made in 1966 (the LP says P1970, but these dates were often way after the recording). And the solo was apparently played by the immortal Bernard Walton. Knowing some of his Philharmonia recordings, I could believe it - although I wasn't aware he ever played for the LSO.
I've made an MP3, and I'm sure some of you would be interested to hear it. Is there a legal way to make it available?
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-09-23 23:35
John,
Thanks for the info. I also wasn't aware that Bernard Walton played in the LSO. At that time, correct me if i'm wrong, it was Gervase de Peyer. Perhaps he was depping.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-24 02:17
Rachmaninoff's works are all still under copyright in Europe and will be until some time in 2013.
Symphony #2 itself (the piece, not the recording) is in the public domain in the US and Canada.
The 1966 recording itself is under copyright in the UK and will probably continue to be under copyright in the UK until at least 2020 (50 years from the 1970 publication date), although it has been proposed by the EU to extend the copyright term of sound recordings to 95 years--I don't know if they've done that (yet) or not (or if they ever will).
The recording might be considered in the public domain in the US (depending on what state you're in) simply because it predates US federal copyright protection for sound recordings (which started in 1972), but it's probably best to stay on the safe side, even the in the US.
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-09-24 07:23
Thanks for the legal advice. It's what I expected, although it's not clear how to understand much of the stuff on youtube in that context.
It's frustrating. The master tapes of Walton sit rotting in RCA's vaults and it seems likely they will never make a transfer. What a waste.
Peter: you're right that de Peyer was the LSO principal when Previn started. I've got some of their CDs where de Peyer is acknowledged on the notes (the wonderful set of Vaughan Williams symponies). But this doesn't sound like the same player. Maybe de Peyer got ill and they needed a dep.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-09-24 14:43
I seem to recall an interview with Brymer in which he referred to it. I think he said that he had not been happy with the solo and that Previn would not retake it since Previn thought it was fine. I am fairly sure this referred to Rach 2 symphony rather than piano concerto, but there is room for faulty recollection here.
Some while later I was speaking to someone who said (or I understood him to say) that the solo was not by Brymer but by Walton. I now understand from the above that one recording was Brymer and that means the earlier one is likely to be Walton.
Wasn't 1966 the year Walton had a dispute with the Philharmonia which ended in him moving to LPO? He may have been freelancing quite a bit.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-24 16:59
John Peacock wrote:
<<It's what I expected, although it's not clear how to understand much of the stuff on youtube in that context. >>
YouTube seems to be governed more by economics than law. YouTube's position is that they are more or less an ISP and protected under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act here in the U.S. They don't really police what goes on on their site. Indeed, it would probably be prohibitively expensive and complicated for them to do so. They'd have to have some kind of real musical expert to figure out where somebody's background music came from, for example:
"Ahh yes, the lost contrabassoon concerto of W.F. Bach....aha, I recognize that flubbed run. This must be the Youth Orchestra of Uzbekhistan recording....Better take this down immediately."
From the standpoint of what people post on YouTube, a lot of copyright owners probably don't know about it or don't care enough to enforce the copyright. In some cases, they may actually benefit from the exposure YouTube gives them. Also some record labels (I think they were record labels--might have been film companies or both) made a deal with YouTube a while back to permit people to post their works on YouTube provided YouTube placed ads on those pages and gave the copyright owners a share of the advertising revenue.
I posted an audio clip of myself on YouTube playing an excerpt from a copyrighted piece (Blue Shades by Ticheli), but I was careful to ask the publisher for permission first, which is what I would advise anyone to do before posting a performance of a copyrighted work on YouTube. They were more than happy to let me do it and were interested find out that clarinettists took an interest in the piece (I posted it on YouTube for the purpose of sharing it here on the BBoard).
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2009-09-24 17:05
mrn -
Please let us have the URL for your YouTube solo.
Thanks.
Ken Shaw
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Author: mrn
Date: 2009-09-24 18:19
Ken Shaw wrote:
> mrn -
>
> Please let us have the URL for your YouTube solo.
Sure. Here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W26zRS82DiA
This is me about 10 years ago. I was in law school at the time and played with a community band there in Austin. This is taken from one of our concerts.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2009-09-24 21:47
John Peacock wrote:
>> I've got some of [the LSO's] CDs where de Peyer is acknowledged on the notes (the wonderful set of Vaughan Williams symponies). But this doesn't sound like the same player. Maybe de Peyer got ill and they needed a dep.>>
I remember the Rachmaninov recording very well. As a student, I read a review (obviously not the Gramophone one that John mentioned) that praised *De Peyer's* playing of the solo; and being a fan not only of the piece but of what I imagined Gervase had probably done with it, I went straight to Cambridge Music Shop. (In those days, they used to let you hear a sample of an LP before buying it.)
My reaction was one of disbelief and disappointment. Instead of the lonely, loving, yearning yet ultimately resigned quality that I was expecting, I got an admittedly beautifully executed but nevertheless emotionally detached piece of 'clarinet playing'. It obviously couldn't be Gervase; and so it proved.
I don't want to diss John Peacock, or spoil his enjoyment; but my own view of Bernard Walton remains that his playing was superlative when, and only when, the piece happened to suit his 'relaxed' style -- which of course it quite often did. But I found -- and find -- myself attracted to players who are more interested in the music than they are in themselves, or indeed in THE CLARINET. Of course, that difference becomes particularly obvious in extended solos.
Members of this BBoard may well find that their priorities differ. So it goes.
Walton's departure from the Philharmonia to the LPO was associated with an episode in which it became clear that he as Treasurer of the orchestra had been less than fastidious about his financial responsibility to his colleagues. After that break, he was in the running for a co-principal job in the LSO (to Gervase); but everyone could see that that would never work between them. So he stayed in the LPO; although for some time they thought he was about to leave, and others, including myself, played there in his stead.
Tony
Post Edited (2009-09-24 21:55)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2009-09-24 22:41
Like Tony Pay, I met the first Previn Rach 2 when a student in Cambridge - but courtesy of a friend, rather than the record shop (where I was also saved from buying a lot of records by having the chance to sample them). It's amazing to look back on how expensive LPs were then - about the same cost as a Naxos CD today, but in the late 1970s. I don't know how I ever afforded to buy any.
He raises an interesting point on musicality vs technique. I don't know how you order these if you can't have both. I can think of many clarinet recordings where I come away thinking, "how can someone so clearly deeply musical bear to make such a miserable sound?". If tonal beauty isn't there, the whole thing is spoiled. This is especially marked in the Rach 2 solo, where I so often hear players pushing against the limit of what they and their reed can deliver. With Walton, there's a rare sense of having plenty of reserves to spare: that he can play at any dynamic and the sound stays pure and unrestricted. You might then disagree what he does musically, but it's hard not to be bowled over by the sheer authority of the playing.
And many thanks for the interesting insights on how Walton came to be in the LSO at that time.
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-10-02 13:14
In the light of this discussion I pulled out my recording of LPO doing this under Boult. It was issued in 1997 by Belart from old recordings. All we are told about this recording is that it was made in 1970. The clarinet playing is, for English playing, very focussed in sound, with a good deal of complexity and variety from note to note, and the player moves in and out of the shadows whimsically and dreamily, in a way which is a bit reminiscent of a 78 rpm recording I have of the 2nd piano concerto solo. It is very beautiful. It does not sound like Walton, though Walton was with the LPO by that time, so who was it? Does anyone know?
Thanks
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