 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-09-22 02:19
I'm in the process of re-corking this practice Bundy. Putting the strips on was no problem at all but sanding the cork to fit is a time consuming affair. I'm doing it with 3/8" x 8" strips of 220 grit sandpaper in shoeshine fashion.
My question, is there a faster way of getting the cork down to size?
I'm using 1/16" cork contact cemented onto the tenon.
Thanks!
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2009-09-22 03:20
Start with a wide flat file, coarse side first, then finer side; then start using the sandpaper.
Also, for the next time, try to get some 3/64" sheet cork, it's closer to the correct final thickness (and might not need filing or sanding at all).
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-09-22 04:07
OK thanks, I didn't think of a file, I'll try that tomorrow and I ordered some 3/64" cork. It may be excessive but I could mount the joint in a lathe at a slow rpm and bet that will get the cork down evenly and fast. I would have to take the bridge off tho.
knotty
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-09-22 04:36
Be careful with a file. If it's too coarse you can break the cork and if this happens it will just happen suddenly.
I don't like using sand paper alone with what some call the "shoe-shining" method. I prefer a file that is like a sand paper. For example nail files, or you can glue sand paper to something that will be like a file. I've tried a bunch of types of nail files for this and some work a lot better than other (some break too easily). I might finish with finer grit sand paper.
You could use the lathe, some repairers do this. It is fast for actually removing the cork but the extra I think is actually slow. That is mounting it, then removing it each time to check, then re-mount if not ready. I don't know how fast this will be for you. At least for me, I use my lathe for other things a lot more, so it doesn't normally have the parts for mounting a clarinet joint on it, so I have to connet those first.
My method is different. I try to do some of the sanding before gluing the cork to the tenon. I do this after I cut the cork strip from the sheet, I use a reversed cone sanding rubber bit on a dental technician micromotor. I sand what would be the outer edge most, then the inner edge less. With the micromotor this usually takes only a few seconds and it also looks very smooth.
Then after I glue the cork I don't need to sand the edges, so I can also work faster because a lot less chance of scratching anything. If you just use sand paper and sand the edge, you have to be extremely careful not scratching the tenon. I usually use the nail file for this, and sometimes finish with sand paper. I think this is faster for me than if I used the lathe.
Also I try to stock cork in several thicknesses 1.2mm (3/64"), 1.4mm, 1.5mm, 1.6mm (1/16"). By the way, I rarely (pretty much never) use 1.6mm (1/16") or thicker for tenons (even if they need this thickness that is). It will be very thick and could compress and not have good support for a long time.
Post Edited (2009-09-22 04:48)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-22 10:40
What I usually do is glue on the cork strips, then using the bench peg to hold the end of the tenon in place and act as a centre, rotate the joint and trim the cork to shape with a sharp scalpel. Then finish off with abrasive (in the shoe-shine manner).
But with clarinet (and oboe) joints being the length they are, I mount the joint in my small lathe, rotate at high speed and sand the corks to shape (using the end of a strip of abrasive) so they resemble this shape ( ).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-09-22 15:35
Thanks for the great tips. I'm off to get some fingernail files, good idea. Yes, I try very hard to keep from touching the tenons with the sandpaper, I guess that adds to the sanding time. I'll try presanding the cork edges too.
I found out how fragile the cork is on my first attempt. Tried wrapping the cork too tightly around the tenon and the cork broke.
I'll also try the lathe, I like the idea of getting the cork perfectly shaped with the lathe. Seems the lathe will be handy just to hold the joint while I polish it.
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2009-09-22 15:51
A lathe is definitely the way to go.
I agree with Chris above on the shape of the cork when you are done. A cork job like that can last many years and seal very well. A lot of clarinetists don't realize that all their pads can seal and they can still have small leaks at the tenons caused by too thin of a cork having been applied, even if it feels like it fits tight.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
New Buffet Clarinets
World Class Mouthpieces
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-22 16:38
On a large lathe with a long bed, you can do cor anglais, bass oboe, alto and bass clarinet tenon corks in it.
Problem with longer joints (if you haven't got access to a large lathe) is finding a good way of holding the joint while shaping/sanding the cork down as it's a fair distance between you and the tenon.
Then you have small items such as soprano sax crooks or cor anglais low Bb barrels where you can use something to fit into the tenon to keep it at a comfortable distance from you - though with straight crooks and cor low Bb/Reform Boehm barrels you can mount them between lathe centres.
Curved soprano sax crooks are a pain - though there is some kind of tool that attaches to the outside of the lathe headstock and goes through to the chuck (which holds it in place) so you can rotate sax crooks to sand the cork down.
For mouthpieces, make a mandrel from a wooden dowel (or metal bar) and cork one end (and sand it down so it's parallel) which is inserted into the mouthpiece bore from the tenon side, and then start the lathe up and sand it down.
With all tenon corks (and crook corks), when you've fitted the cork strip in place, trim and file down the overlapping bit so it's flush with the rest of the cork (so it looks like a continuous ring of cork) instead of leaving a lump at the join.
Make sure when using a lathe to sand tenon corks, the end of the overlap on the cork strip isn't going against the direction the chuck is rotating in. So get your overlap in the right direction or turn the joint around so it is (or put the lathe into reverse).
Test the fit of the tenon cork before applying grease - it should go on half to 2/3rds of the way on with a fair amount of resistance. If it only goes on a quarter of the way and no more, sand it down some more until it fits better.
Then apply a good amount of cork grease, rubbing it well into the cork and then try it again. It should now be a good wobble-free fit - though the tenons should ideally be a good wobble-free fit without the tenon cork in place - the tenon cork applies the outward force to keep the tenon securely in the socket and also act as an air and water-tight seal.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-09-22 16:50)
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Author: knotty
Date: 2009-09-22 18:59
My hobby is making writing pens on my wood lathes and have to turn, sand and polish the barrels to fairly tight specs with various materials from exotic woods to acrylics. So, the corks shouldn't be any problem at all. Yes, I understand about the barrel shape of the corks and I'm anxious to give it a try.
Seems I've found a hobby in fixing clarinets for the coming rainy days..LOL
Thanks!
knotty
~ Musical Progress: None ~
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-22 19:03
I wouldn't mind a basic woodturning lathe just to do tenon corks on - I think there's one lying around somewhere but it means a rummage around the garden shed to find it and then I need somewhere in my workshop to set it up.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-09-22 20:27
Is compressing the cork by hammering it of any use? This is of course before you install it on the clarinet.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-22 21:57
I don't believe compressing natural cork has any significant benefits - it'll only expand again later on.
Try to cut a strip of cork without any breaks running across it, so test each strip once it's been cut to the correct width (before glueing it on) by bending it to the same curvature of the tenon slot to be sure it will do the job - if it breaks, it's no good and you can use it for key corks.
And when glueing it in place, don't stretch it as you go just in case it breaks when you're half way on! If anything, push it into place in the tenon slot rather than pulling it around which will only put it in tension.
Then once it's glued in place and the overlappign end is trimmed off and smoothed down, roll it against the edge of your bench to push out any air that may be trapped, then leave it to recover (and to give the glue a bit more time to go off) before shaping and sanding down.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-09-22 22:04)
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Author: stebinus2
Date: 2009-09-23 08:25
For sanding I use 150 grade strips of cloth-backed sandpaper such as Norton E-Z Flex Metalite Cloth Closekoat Aluminum Oxide 150-J
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2009-09-23 09:10
I'm a user of a lathe for sanding tenon corks (and making barrels)
I am well used to it and used to the touch that is needed.
It literally takes me 30 seconds to 2 minutes max to smooth the edges and sand it to the correct height (if needed) including taking it on and off. This is after you install the cork and trim off excess overlap and sand flush. This sanding flush is important as most when sanding by hand on a lathe will not sand any "bump" down flush.
But I also have all the equipment and mandrels (for mouthpieces, barrels, joints) for all this work so it is very quick for me to put on and take off for fitting.
I used a curved piece of metal which I put sandpaper on to smooth the edges. Then either that one or a wider metal one that i put sandpaper on also to get the width part down if needed.
Don't ever go above 800 rpm - you'll rip/shred the cork and not know it until you stop. I'll normally use 400rpm, or 800 for very low grit sandpaper (400 grit and above)
In addition to all the above tips, I normally put the tenon corks in a mpc cap (like a alto or bass cl cap) so that it gets some "roundness" to it first before gluing it.
My lathe has paid for itself very quickly as it normally took me a lot longer to do tenon corks. I've been using one now constantly for probably at least 3 years for this. At first it seemed awkward and maybe time consuming. But after getting the correct mandrels and technique it saves a ton of time.
I also use it to mount the joints on for when cleaning posts. It's in a fixed position so it won't move. I picked up these processes after reading of some of Moennigs techniques.
Have fun
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
Post Edited (2009-09-23 09:19)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-09-23 12:22
I find the bench peg is a useful thing to have when cleaning and polishing up joints and pillars as it leaves you with both hands free, and also when glueing on tenon corks the joint can be rotated while glueing the strip of cork in place.
Once you get the feel of doing tenon corks, you will know how much to snad them down by so they fit without having to test them. But on instruments with metal lined sockets, make sure your tenon corks are thicker than they'd be for non-lined sockets as there's less grip in metal lined sockets. You might find this on plastic instruments as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-09-24 00:16
I have found that pre-compressing the cork with a vise helps prevent breaks, and will give a result that stays tighter longer.
When I put it in the vise I compress the whole cork as far as possible and leave it there for at least a minute. The cork will usually become a little malformed so you have to start with a strip that is wider than needed and cut it again after compression.
Also, as soon as I glue it all around the tenon, I wrap it in a very long elastic band as the glue dries. I leave it like this at least 1 hour.
Then I do the trimming and sanding.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2009-09-25 14:19
Now this is a great thread! It is so basic yet contains practical tips you know right away have some validity backed by years of experience. I'm going to buy a lathe and attack my clarinet corks(I have other uses for the lathe) ..... my top joint tenon has a combo of thread and cork grease that I've been meaning to replace. Thanks to all contributors.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-09-26 13:46
I have an excellent lathe, but used it only once for tenon corks. Far too inefficient in time.
I do all the sanding with a thin, long file, about 1/2" across. I removed all the teeth, and glue 150 grit sand paper to each side.
I do all the edge rounding/chamfering before gluing, while the cork is still flat. Just a few strokes and it is done. A huge advantage of this is that after the gluing, I do not need to sand anywhere near the timber.
After attaching the cork in the groove, I have never needed to wait for further setting. I use a knife to trim the overlap, and also the edges only at the join
For tidying up the centre area of the join, and for any diameter sanding that is necessary, I rest the tenon on my knee and work around it with the same sanding device.
Very quick. Very quick for testing the fit too, because there is no lathe mounting involved.
BTW I don't think tenon cork has to be ballroom hall smooth. It probably retains cork grease better if it is not. So fast cutting 150 grit is just fine.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2009-09-28 22:37
Don't turn the clarinet at a high rpm with the keys on. The weight of the keys can exert enough outward force to split the timber.
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Author: wjulaxer13
Date: 2012-04-04 12:53
i am looking into a lathe for turning new tenons, among other things, but am unfamiliar with them at this point. What size lathe is optimal and what other items should i be aware of? Thank you.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-04-04 13:29
If you want a lathe just for sanding tenons on, a basic woodworking lathe will be adequate as it hasn't got all the bells and whistles as a metalworking lathe.
And look for one with a decent length bed that can be adjusted to fit a joint from 8" up to around 20" in length (or maybe more) so you can do most woodwinds on it.
But if you want an all purpose lathe, a metalworking one with a minimum 300mm (12") bed will be fine.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: sdr
Date: 2012-04-04 16:05
While on this subject, what adhesive do you use for your tenon corks?
-sdr
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2012-04-04 16:35
If filing without the aid of mechanical devices, I found an emory board to be great, the type with a fine and course side. For the finish work fine sandpaper (340+) or emory cloth, shoe shine method could be used (having someone else hold the clarinet helps).
Laurie
Laurie (he/him)
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2012-04-04 18:56
A basic woodworking lathe is best. You can set it up so you can get right up on it and close to the work at hand. Also, take the keywork off before using a lathe.
I use contact cement for my cork adhesive. I think the brand is DEP.
You cannot apply it then stick it together though.
Apply it thinly to the cork and the piece you are applying it to (tenon, key).
Then it takes about 10 minutes to get really tacky where the two pieces will join quite well without any movement. You can speed up this process by blowing on the two glued pieces before joining them.
If you apply it too soon while it is still "liquid" it could take some time (hours to overnight) to properly dry.
I also sometimes use the emery board to sand down the "joint" of the tenon wrap. Then put it on the lathe and the emery board makes quick work (literally seconds) of rounding the edges. You can also use the emery board to sand down the tenon cork if needed.
If you check the joints together before putting it on the lath you can usually gauge by feel how much to sand down, if any is needed.
if you have a good and accurate touch you never touch the wood either when sanding the edges.
I use the lathe on a low setting, something like 300rpms. Just the sight of those posts spinning around at any higher rate worries me.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2012-04-04 19:30
A lathe is fine for high volume tenon cork sanding but not really efficient for general repair work.
I find that using an open weave abrasive tape works best as the cork dust falls out through the abrasive without clogging and the tape is sufficiently firm across it's width to prevent risk of removing wood from the tenon shoulders (unless you are careless).
I have a few lengths of varying widths and grades that I have used on hundreds of tenon corks without loosing effectiveness.
Supporting the clarinet joints on a bench peg (wedged between your body and the peg) frees up both hands to work the tape and allows the joint to be easily rotated to ensure that cork is kept concentric with the body.
As noted in earlier post use contact glue e.g. Evostick and allow to dry for 5 -10 minutes before fixing the cork, press the cork firmly to the wood, I use the flat handle of a scapel blade holder - minus blade! to do this and ensure full adhesion at all points, there is absolutely no need then to use any other method e.g. binding he cork as it adheres firmly from moment one.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2012-04-05 18:30
I find it works better to cut the sandpaper in 11" instead of 8" strips.
Before cutting it, I put a strip of wide clear tape on the back, this helps keep it from breaking. I wrap the joint in a towell and hold it between my knees - it takes me less than 30 seconds to sand it to the correct width (but I have had a LOT of practice)
Hope that helps.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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The Clarinet Pages
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Actually the lack of peg at the front of the bench is more helpful to me than the peg ever was 